Photos of N.C. Commercial By-Catch

[mumichog]

Here's a link to some sad pics-

http://fishmojo.com/cgi-bin/moboards/mowire.cgi?read=8702

Read the thread at http://www.flyfishsaltwaters.com on the CCA page

[CMP]

fer crissakes, chog, get a grip. Those photos are posted withoput attribution. Even the poster admits he is unsure as to the source, but the leap is made. Pathetic. I've seen bigger natural fish kills from the Nuese River that could have been blamed on anything as well. Look before you leap...

CMP

[mumichog]

whatever you say.....

[mumichog]

go to this string on a different board -

http://www.stripersonline.com/ubb547/Forum1/HTML/005144.html

many of these posters are upset and are struggling for answers in a thoughtful manner.

oh, and by the way CMP, here's a first hand account from another board, but it's probably just conspiracy-

"I fished out of oregon inlet today, about 2 miles east of the lighthouse (Bodie Island). Caught a couple stripers, then picked the rest of our limit from the hundred or so dead stripers that were discarded after a trawler hauled back. I fish out of oregon inlet about twice a week and this is the first dead stripers I have seen. Plenty of herring, menhaden and gray trout but after brian's post and what I saw today I'm scared to think what goes on everyday that goes unseen. There were at least 25 trawlers fishing today between OI and avalon pier."fished out of oregon inlet today, about 2 miles east of the lighthouse (Bodie Island). Caught a couple stripers, then picked the rest of our limit from the hundred or so dead stripers that were discarded after a trawler hauled back. I fish out of oregon inlet about twice a week and this is the first dead stripers I have seen. Plenty of herring, menhaden and gray trout but after brian's post and what I saw today I'm scared to think what goes on everyday that goes unseen. There were at least 25 trawlers fishing today between OI and avalon pier."

[CMP]

LMFAO at you chog! If you consider what I posted as intimidating, then you are in serious need of psychiatric attention. With regard to the board you referenced, I went there to see the report. It's poster is a cca apparatchik from Virginia who has always been against commercial fishing and takes every anecdotal incident and blows it out of proportion to suit his agenda. Additionally, as is often the case when emotion reigns supreme, ignorance has run rampant in that thread. First, NC law, right or wrong, allows the practice of high-grading. I don't agree with it and wouldn't do it, but, contrary to what some of those "knowledgable" posters posted, it is not against the law. Second, the trawl fishery in NC for stripers is NOT a "by-catch" fishery as further purported by some of your "knowledgable" posters. The DMF law states that 100 pounds of stripers may be retained by a trawl boat per trip. No mention of it being by-catch-specific. Lastly, my comment about the photo is absolutely valid. There is a pervasive rush to judgement against anything commercial that rnus through these "conservation" boards that turns them into nothing more than a cyber-circle-jerk. Things are posted by largely anonymous posters and, if they fit the agenda of people like you, chog, they are accepted as gospel without any regard for the truthfulness, or lack thereof, of their content. Being angry about a perceived wrong in a fishery is fine. Attempting to right that wrong is also a right and good thing, but using opinion as fact and obfuscating the real agenda is bravo sierra in its purest sense and you swallowed it whole because it fits your agenda, then you attempt to paint my comments as "intimidating". Pathetic, chog, is the only term to describe that kind of nonsense. Next time you want to have a "thoughtful" discussion about a topic on which you have little or no first-hand knowledge, I'd suggest you actually consider the root word of thoughtful and think...

CMP

[dtbrown]

CMP, So you disagree with chog. No need to be contemptuous about it.

For example, I like catching stripers, but am also leery of knee-jerk liberalism that affects how people make a living. (Case in point: the idiotic ban-cruel traps legislation that was passed in MA. a couple of years ago.);

The nice thing about this forum is that it's friendly and all points of view are considered.

Dom

[CMP]

The only "contempt" I hold for chog is due to his knee-jerk belief that all commercial fishing is evil and needs to be stopped. That is the underlying theme to all his posts and I'm tired of it. The fact is that he doesn't know what he is talking about when it comes to fisheries management process, but purports to. That is disingenuous at best and dishonest at worst-probably somewhere in-between. Heck, for all I know, chog is a lovely guy, wonderful family man and deacon of his church and we may even enjoy a round of golf together, but the way he presents things here is annoying and generally skewed towards blaming all the ills of the earth on a group of largely good, honest, hard-working and, yes chog, forward-thinking, conservation-minded folk...

CMP

[ACE]

O.K. Everyone, mellow out. Viualise Whirled Peas.

[bobber]

CMP- I gotta disagree with you that most comm's are "conservation-minded folks"- on the contrary, they tend to be self-serving, single minded, short-sighted, and often bullying types that try to intimidate anyone who disagrees with their way of thinking... kinda like what you're doing right now- I've been to too many fishery meetings where the comms sit together and disrupt/harass the whole procceedings whenever someone interjects with any kind of thought to conservation, so they often ARE NOT the benevolent, neighborly fisher-folk you pretend them to be... Just my .02

[striper53]

Before you start shoutin' at each other has anyone verified the actual content of the photos? Where they were taken? When they were taken? Who took them? For all I know they could be in someones pool!!!.

...just a thought

PaulH

[ppatricelli]

Gee, I have no pre-set agenda either to attack commercial fisheries, or to blindly defend them against all attackers. But I HAVE followed behind the commercial trawlers (fishing albies) in NC and WATCHED and SAW what was being discard as BYCATCH. It was pathetic! Undersized seatrout, reds, flounder, everything.
There can be no argument that seine trawlers are a NON-SELECTIVE technique that will vacumn up whatever passes under the bow. And if it isn't a targeted critter (OR OVER SOME 100# BYCATCH ALLOTMENT) it's dead meat and it's going back over the side. Dead, whatever it was.
Why, I wonder, does SC forbid shrimp trawling off it's shore altogether? Why is Texas phasing out all shrimp trawling except offshore (i.e. get them out of the rich inner bays and from behind Padre Island)? Because the impact on the whole system of that type of fishery can no longer be sustained or defended.
There has been internet posting to the point that BIG stripers have been showing up off the Outers Banks in large numbers this winter for the first time in 30 years. If that's true, and I have no reason to doubt it, then some or more of them are going to get seined, and after some allotment they are going to be discarded. And since they are a schooling fish, at times that is going to be ugly!.
By all means let's be careful about what is truth and what is rumor. But when the stinking boot fits, someone had better be ready and willing to wear it!
Peter Patricelli

[jettyjockey]

i was going to sit this one out, but its winter and i'm bored...

cmp-
good point about the pics...no telling where they were taken or under what cirumstances (could've been an andy lynn boat, for all anyone knows). i saw the original thread in sol and it wasn't any clearer.
as far as your description of commercials...i gotta agree with bobber. i have yet to meet a commercial that wouldn't put himself out of business tomorrow to make a buck today.
as far as the nc fishery, i didn't know that highgrading was legal...if so, i guess you'd have to blame the dmf and not the commercials for allowing it. i just hate seeing big fish wasted in pursuit of bigger fish.

[CMP]

jetty I agree. That practice is no good for anyone. The problem I have is when people, yourself included, ascribe foolish motivations to commercial fishermen such as the comment you made in teh above post. How many commercial fishermen are you onj a first-name basis with adn how often have you seen them practice their trade FIRST-HAND? You and others have this vision of commercials that is, in my first-hand experience, completely wrong. The long and short of it is that when we allow emotion to guide a thought process, that thought process is flawed from the beginning. Chog and others BELIEVE something to be true and when a person posts something that seems to affirm this belief, they run with it. It's understandable, but intellectually-dishonest. The people talking about all the illegal activities happening in NC were dead wrong on the law. What is alleged stinks, but as you point out, it is more a problem with dmf and the powers that be than with someone operating within the law, albeit in a manner I find unacceptable...

CMP

[mumichog]

What I find unacceptable is the consistent effort by the commercial position to somehow blame their actions on someone else - "it is more a problem with dmf and the powers that be than with someone operating within the law..." Now, that's pathetic. Who's driving the boat anyway?

So if I and all my friends killed each and every "legal" fish we caught we should blame it on the DMF, ASMFC, NHF+G, CCA, my mother, her brother, whoever it was that made the limit 28"?? Just because we were still within the law we could say we were conservationists and if other rec's didn't like it they should blame it on the law? Killing these fish would then be someone else's doing? Not a chance.

I choose to let fish go. Is it too much to expect commercial fishermen to see beyond what is simply "legal" and conduct business is a less wasteful manner?

That's acting responsibly, that's conservation.

Mumichog

[mikeq]

Out of curiosity, are there any fishing methods, laws, programs, etc. that have had any success at reducing by-catch, or at least finding ways to allow by-catch kills to make it to market so fish aren't dying pointlessly? While rec fishing, I occassionally have to release a fish that I know is not going to make it. I feel bad for killing the thing when it's not my intent. I feel worse knowing it's going to waste when it could be feeding somebody.

(BTW, an all too common occurence: One day last fall at the Canal there was some guy with a mid 20's bass walking up and down the tow road asking people if they had a tape measure. When I said no he asked me, "Well do you think this fish is a keeper?" After watching him drop the glassy-eyed thing twice on the road all I could say is. "It is now.")

[bdowning]

All the more reason why there should be numerous and conspicuous signs on the poles posted at heavily used areas of the Canal that explain in simple language what the length limit is and that a fish should under no circumstances be kept if there is any doubt about its size. Yes there are some signs now, but they are few and often hidden.

I can't tell you how many guys I run into at the Canal that have absolutely no idea what the current limit is. Yeah, there are the yahoos who will keep anything if they can get away with it and who don't care. But there are plenty more who would comply and release a short fish if they only knew the rules. A good part of enforcement is educating the populace and signs would be a good start. If DMF can't afford the time or resources, wouldn't this be a good CCA-sponsored activity (if presumably the Canal authorities would go along with it)?

-bd


<img src="http://world.std.com/~bdowning/fishing_lg_wte.gif">

[spook]

Hello CMP, Can you give an example of comms being forward thinking conservationists?

[spook]

Hello CMP, Can you give an example of comms being forward thinking conservationists?


<blockquote>
=========
On 2/15/01 8:45:08 AM, cmp wrote:
The only "contempt" I hold for chog is due to his knee-jerk belief that all commercial fishing is evil and needs to be stopped. That is the underlying theme to all his posts and I'm tired of it. The fact is that he doesn't know what he is talking about when it comes to fisheries management process, but purports to. That is disingenuous at best and dishonest at worst-probably somewhere in-between. Heck, for all I know, chog is a lovely guy, wonderful family man and deacon of his church and we may even enjoy a round of golf together, but the way he presents things here is annoying and generally skewed towards blaming all the ills of the earth on a group of largely good, honest, hard-working and, yes chog, forward-thinking, conservation-minded folk...<BR><BR>CMP
</blockquote>

<blockquote>
=========
On 2/15/01 8:45:08 AM, cmp wrote:
The only "contempt" I hold for chog is due to his knee-jerk belief that all commercial fishing is evil and needs to be stopped. That is the underlying theme to all his posts and I'm tired of it. The fact is that he doesn't know what he is talking about when it comes to fisheries management process, but purports to. That is disingenuous at best and dishonest at worst-probably somewhere in-between. Heck, for all I know, chog is a lovely guy, wonderful family man and deacon of his church and we may even enjoy a round of golf together, but the way he presents things here is annoying and generally skewed towards blaming all the ills of the earth on a group of largely good, honest, hard-working and, yes chog, forward-thinking, conservation-minded folk...<BR><BR>CMP
</blockquote>

[Bob Parsons]

Rod & Reel commercial fisherman do not have a problem with by-catch. I know thereis another method but it escape me at the moment.

The sea is a big resource and there are all kinds of Commercial fisherman making their living from what they catch. It may be tuff to believe (cmp will) but there are commercial people out there that do care about what they are catching and adjust what they do in the interest of conservation.

Just as there are many recreational people that don't give a rat's ass about regs.

[spook]

Hi Bob Parsons,
You make the most sense of all the messages so far.

[ppatricelli]

Since my favorite peeve for the manufacturers is unmarked, unidentifiable fly fishing lines (I now have over 50 lines, partly due to the ongoing confusion about just what is what) and no little fury about why that does NOT have to be, I'll throw in another. Since the thread appeared about all the confusion about "keeper" size, and length limits are ubiquitous, why not a manufactured in tape measure on EVERY fishing rod up to say, 30 inches.
Yes, I know they are available as an aftermarket add on. But why not put one on EVERY rod. It could be done very inobtrusively, possibly even decoratively, and then there would be NO EXCUSE about how big a fish is.
And we might even start believing each other about how big our catches were. NAAAWW!
Peter Patricelli

[dondkim]

Brilliant Idea!!!! Over ten years ago I got a whole bunch of yellow tape measure made by Stren and put them on all my salt water spinning rods and casting rods. they are only 18" long, so one should stick it on the rod 12" or 15" from the butt, or any length one wish. I also did two thing for all my fly rods. 1) I put masking tape on the mark of the legal length. 2) I also made the butt section of the leaders the same. This might solve some problem for somebody in the mean time. Spring will be here soon. Don

[CMP]

Bob, nothing more needs to be said as you've made my point exactly. There are bad seeds in every group, but people like chog, spook et al, want everyone to believe that the bad seeds commercially are the rule rather than the exception and to make their "point", they go off half-cocked without knowing what they're talking about...

CMP

[spook]

To CMP<
Please reread my message. I do not think me view parallels the one submitted by chog.

[NathanSmith]

I suppose I can speak with some authority on this subject. My Father is a Comm. Fisherman out of Morehead City, NC. We generally troll for 45min to and hour. The bag has about 100-150 pounds and produces I would figure about 50-75 pounds of By-Catch fish. This really adds up. I know the law allow us to keep and sell 100lbs for striper but no wholesalers will buy them. Most striper meal goes to processed fish products and animal food. Those companies make deals with specific wholesalers that target stripers usually in New England and the Chesapeak bay area. See they want to buy thousands of pounds rather then 200-500 hundred from dealers peddling by-catch.

[CMP]

Perhaps I misread your intent and for that I apologize. I can speak personally of 3 full-time watermen that I know well and who make their living off the water who think more poractively than any "sportie" I have ever met. Spook, you may well be the exception, but when it comes to "conversation" here, I have yet to see any posts, with exception of Bob Parsons, Josko and Mike Q, who really understand that not all commercial folk are the devil-incarnate. It is sad commentary that people will demonize an entire group for the bad practices of their predecessors and blindly follow a path that leads the entire fishing community, both rec and comm, down the path of mutually assured self-destruction. There have been abd continue to be poor practices by certain elements of both secotrs, with the commercial side taking the deservedly lion's share of the abuse, but that should not taint the entire pool. I could cite you chapter and verse the number of people who wanted me to flaunt the rules on charteres, but I didn't and I do not feel the need to do so. That said, the excesses by a few that are easily exploited via the interenet should serve merely to punish the guilty, not indict the entire collection of people who participate honestly and with an eye toward the future. Spook, if I insulted you in any way by putting you in the same boat as chog, that was my mistake. I merely felt that your question, given the context in which it was asked, was less a question than a rhetorical statement and for that, I apologize. All else stands as written...

CMP

[spook]

CMP,
Thank you for the reply.


<blockquote>
=========
On 2/18/01 7:43:42 PM, CMP wrote:
Perhaps I misread your intent and for that I apologize. I can speak personally of 3 full-time watermen that I know well and who make their living off the water who think more poractively than any "sportie" I have ever met. Spook, you may well be the exception, but when it comes to "conversation" here, I have yet to see any posts, with exception of Bob Parsons, Josko and Mike Q, who really understand that not all commercial folk are the devil-incarnate. It is sad commentary that people will demonize an entire group for the bad practices of their predecessors and blindly follow a path that leads the entire fishing community, both rec and comm, down the path of mutually assured self-destruction. There have been abd continue to be poor practices by certain elements of both secotrs, with the commercial side taking the deservedly lion's share of the abuse, but that should not taint the entire pool. I could cite you chapter and verse the number of people who wanted me to flaunt the rules on charteres, but I didn't and I do not feel the need to do so. That said, the excesses by a few that are easily exploited via the interenet should serve merely to punish the guilty, not indict the entire collection of people who participate honestly and with an eye toward the future. Spook, if I insulted you in any way by putting you in the same boat as chog, that was my mistake. I merely felt that your question, given the context in which it was asked, was less a question than a rhetorical statement and for that, I apologize. All else stands as written...<BR><BR>CMP
</blockquote>

[spook]

Hi Peter,
If you figure out a way to ident lines come over for lunch.
I was told at a seminar that marking lines is very expensive as any blem in the marking trashes the entire line.
As for tape measures on the rods-I wouldn't object but you can do something right now.Premeasure your rod from butt to first and second guide. It's better than nothing. Also, a dollar bill is 6inches long.

[RJ]

Peter P - A fly line tip! Somewhere along the line, I was taught to mark all my fly lines with a felt tip marker as to size and type. It won't tell you who built the fly line but try this for an Identification system. Mark a floating fly line with a perm. black marking pen as follows 1/2" marks = 5# and 1/4" marks = 1# ergo a ____ __ __ __ marked on your fly line would tell you it is a WF8F line. ____ ____ designates a 10# WF10F line. I use a red perm. marker for intermediate lines and pretty much know what my sinking lines or sink-tip lines are. You could devise a pretty good ID system for sinking lines by using a fluorescent marker. I mark my lines the first time I put them on my reels.

I like your idea of measured rods by the manufacturer. Some of the "I build my own fishing rods" crowd could start devising neat and easily read marking on their custom rods and maybe pass it on to ther rest of us.

RJ

[RJ]

Spook - Check out my reply to Peter on marking fly lines. A perm. felt tip marker doesn't trash a line. Unless you know of a market for used fly lines that are bringing collector prices I think you will like the ID method I passed on the Peter P.

I live in up state NY and fish Q-Pond in RI, the Cape and Plum Is. in MA. Where we going to lunch?

RJ

[ppatricelli]

Actually, yes, I do that too. In fact the long stripe=5 and short stripe=1 system is so ubiquitous that the fly line manyfacurers should adopt it. But... even with permament marker these marks fade with use and sun exposure. AND they don't show up on dark sinking lines. And the sink rate designation gets confused with the line weight. Is it a type 4 sink 6 weight, or vide versa. And one manufacturers type 4 sink is another's type 6. Now I mark the woven loop material with weight on one side and sink rate on the other.
But this is still ridiculous. The line manufacturers could build in a permanent color system with no trouble whatsoever. Remember the HDH line system? The manufacturers fidnally all got together and decided on a standard. It greatly simplified the line/rod weight system and fly fishing became easier, less mystical, and more popular. The same could/would occur with fly lines. It doesn't take a laser to do it. I once suggested that the FFF do something useful by negotiating with the airlines so we could all carry our rods on board and not check them. The result... we all had to buy four piece travel rods! The FFF could take up the line marking issue. Hey Greg Pitts, you listening? But then, it makes too much sense.
I for one would immediately buy lines only from the first manufacturer who commits to a consistent, across the board marking system and to hell with all the others.
Peter Patricelli

[RJ]

Go get 'em Pete! Semper Fi!

RJ