East End -- Cinder worm hatch

[fmw]

Here is a topic that I hope provokes some discussion: cinderworm hatches on the east end. I have read often about these elusive events, but it is something that I have just not ever had a chance to witness. According to "striped bass textbook logic", as there is a new moon on Thurs., Thurs/Fri/Sat should theoretically provide just about the best chance all season for stumbling onto such a hatch. I noticed that high tides on Friday and Saturday for the Gardiners Bay area are 11:00 pm-midnight with a low at 5-6 am. Given the above:

1) Where in the East Hampton area are the worm hatches most likely to occur? Do they occur in just about all of the local harbors and creeks and one can find them anywhere? or is there one or more locations that tend to experience these hatches rather than others? Does the area even see these hatches with any kind of regularity (or is it something reserved for Fly Fishing in Saltwater Magazine articles and Lou Tabory books)? -- Can I get someone to cough this up?

2) Do I want an outgoing tide for certain? i.e., this weekend one would thus want to fish beginning midnight at the earliest until first light -- the really ugly hours. I'm gonna guess the answer to this question is a "yes."

Thanks.

[jpuris]

Tuna....I know you must have the answer to this... I would like to know too.....Good question.....


Jason

[Yozuri-Man]

Look for these hatches in and around mud flats. There must be mud in the vicinity of the hatch . Then when the hatch is occuring, the worms will drift with the tide off the flats into channels, bays , or other areas.

-acb

[Tuna]

Don't have a clue (never run into a cinder worm hatch). I read Yozuri-Man's earlier response with the interest of someone who wants to see his first cinder worm hatch.

[MAKO20]

The bay between Cedar Point and Sag Harbor has a few creeks that have muddy bottoms. At a high tide, you'd be able to get a boat up some of them. You could also fish them from shore, but I'm not so sure about wading them, I never have because the bottom is the consistancy of pudding. Other areas to look would be the southwest side of Gardiners Island, Any of the creeks on the way out to Montauk,(hell, give three mile harbor a shot) and of course, Coecles Harbour, with the muckiest bottom I've ever seen and a strong outgoing current.

Good luck, your a better man than I for pulling the Midnight - 6 a.m. shift! I'll look for you on the way out Sat. Morning.

[fmw]

Don't give me too much credit. I didn't say I was definitely pulling the late shift. I still haven't seen good information about these hatches that would cause me to do so. Based on your post, you seem to have in mind the place I was thinking of as the most likely possibility: the area between Cedar Point and Sag. However, is such a hatch truly a possibility based on past experience in the area, or is all of this just hypothesis and reading one too many magazine articles?

[jpuris]

Can I get to this place Between Cedar Point and Sag Harbor from shore? How? Thanks and if anyone is interested I will be pulling the night shift. Just got shipment of Cinder Worms..Let me know

Jason

[fmw]

The place I was thinking of was Northwest Creek. There is access on either side -- on the west side around the Sag Harbor golf course (I never tried to get there from that side), and on the east side as well -- just take a look at a map for road names (you need to hike 1/4 to 1/2 a mile to the inlet) -- but it is a very nice and pristine spot. Good luck! Like I said, I haven't heard enough to make the all night effort seem worthwhile.

Will probably try that dawn/dusk bite again this weekend in the Devon/Barnes Landing area. Any word as to whether that has continued since two weeks ago?

[jpuris]

I did not hit the Devon are last weekend, so I have no report. High tide was about 6:20am on Sat so should have been good. Thanks for the info.....

[MAKO20]

It's not that it doesn't happen or that the boys at the magazines are fabricating stories (they get hundreds of articles a week)it's just that the conditions have to have been perfect leading up to a full blow hatch. Weather, tide, current, fish zeroing in on it, etc. Worms always hatch, but not nearly in enough numbers to get fish bonkers over it. The only time i've fished one I didn't even know what was happening. I could get them to eat ANY fly I presented. Then someone else told us it was a cinder worm hatch. First cast after switching my fly I got one, and it stayed that way for some time.

It might happen, but if your there for it, it's probably pure luck!

[jpuris]

FMW could that small creek to the w of the area (DYC) you fished a few weekends ago be a place for a hatch on the out going? or is the enterance to small? Also have you ever noticed hoe red the water is there on the out going? Jason

[fmw]

Beats me. It seems kind of small.

[David Churbuck]

<P>Last&nbsp; March I started a thread in the fly tying forum on cinder worm patterns. That drifted into a discussion of how to find and fish the elusive phenomenon. A Long Island guide -- Capt. Dale Something -- had some good tips. I'll try to embed a link to the thread here:</P>
<P><A href="http://www.reel-time.com/forum/user/non-frames/message.asp?forumid=13&amp;messageid=14179&amp;threadid=14 179">http://www.reel-time.com/forum/user/non-frames/message.asp?forumid=13&amp;messageid=14179&amp;threadid=14 179</A></P>
<P>dcc</P>

[jpuris]

Thanks David! That was interesting......I'll let you know what I find this weekend.

[Capt.Dale]

First Dave, thanks for rembering me(Capt. Dale Hall).I think the most important factors are the moons(new and full)and water temp.It's not all smoke and mirrors guys,it's actually pretty easy.When you figure it out for your location it will come year after year.I would be happy to share my limited knoledge on the hatches with anyone willing to contact me at: Smithtownbaychtr@cs.com Thanks Capt Dale Hall

[jrw]

In search of the East End worm hatch, 2004, I'm going to fish 3 Mile Harbor, Accabonoc and Nepeauge areas around new and full moon tides, May and June. I've seen it and fished it in broad daylight around the new moon, around ten am, in Jamaica Bay, but I'm fishing the East End extensively this year. I'll let you know if and when I hit it. If anyone is interested, or has updated info, let me know on this thread.

Thanks,

jrw

[tom crowley]

flyfisherman ran an article about five years ago . it featured a fly by Paul Dixon. I tied a bunch of them but i have personally never seen a hatch . A friend of mine that used to live on sterling creek in greenport has witnessed 2 . they usually occur in may and june i thought
try stripermoon.com i beleive there is an article about the hatch.
FYI i went clamming sunday on an extremly low tde and all i came up with were dead clams and worms. this was at the mouth of another creek that should have a hatch

[tom crowley]

flyfisherman ran an article about five years ago . it featured a fly by Paul Dixon. I tied a bunch of them but i have personally never seen a hatch . A friend of mine that used to live on sterling creek in greenport has witnessed 2 . they usually occur in may and june i thought
try stripermoon.com i beleive there is an article about the hatch.
FYI i went clamming sunday on an extremly low tde and all i came up with were dead clams and worms. this was at the mouth of another creek that should have a hatch

[fmw]

Pretty wierd seeing one of my old posts pop up three years later. All I can say is that I have never seen a worm hatch around the east end (though I've never really aimed for finding one). Worm hatches or not, all the places you mentioned are pretty dependable at dusk and dawn in the late-spring early-summer. I have heard of worm hatches fairly early in the season back towards Sag Harbor . . . I'd suggest talking to Ken at Tight Lines in Sag Harbor.

[jim1205]

I fish that hatch in one of nyc dirtiest waterways, The newtown Creek. At the end of manhattan ave. I've actueally seen the eyes (reflecting the full moon) of the bass as they swim in fro the east river. Its like clockwork. I've never thought of looking this early in the season though. Also fish it in Jam bay.

[joshr]

I have twice encountered cinder worm hatches in Acabonnac harbor...both times were in June on the new moon and both were many years ago.

--Josh

[jrw]

I fish that hatch in one of nyc dirtiest waterways, The newtown Creek. At the end of manhattan ave. I've actueally seen the eyes (reflecting the full moon) of the bass as they swim in fro the east river. Its like clockwork. I've never thought of looking this early in the season though. Also fish it in Jam bay.

hey, lets talk, maybe you can show me what you're talking about. sounds like some great photography opportunities. james.wu9@verizon.net

[ghost]

Cinder worm hatches are quite common in the back bays near Flanders and Peconic River.

[mgustav]

I live around and fish Moriches Bay. I've fished and seen a number of them. There was a worm hatch last week and I heard about one a few days ago in RI. They happen most of the year. There are 5,000 species of this type of worm. They seem to have different requirements for spawning. My experinece shows that summer hatches happen around new and full moons. In general, three days prior to a new or full can be the beginning of the hatch. The very beginning of outgoing will bring them out. The size of these worms vary greatly from 1" to 7". They die after spawning.
http://www.panix.com/~pg/flyfishing/clamwrm.jpg
(The left and right flies are cinder worms, the middle fly is a chironomid trout fly)
http://www.panix.com/~pg/flyfishing/cworms.jpg
http://www.panix.com/~pg/flyfishing/cworm.jpg
These will work as well as red gurglers.

[jpuris]

Is this thread really 3 years old???????????????? yikes! --127-3-

[mgustav]

and we're still having cinder worm hatches.

[Mark Cahill]

Is this thread really 3 years old???????????????? yikes! --127-3-
That's happening a lot now because of the "similar threads" list at the bottom of every thread. Someone sees something interesting, reads, then replies and bang...we've got a blast from the past. I should probably look into closing all the old threads.

[bluefishercat]

I for one find the old threads interesting. Since I usually just check new posts and read the ones that might interest me this adds to the # that I read. i.e. more hits --127-3-
Pete

[fmw]

If "closing" means you won't be able to find the posts through searching, I too strongly hope threads aren't closed. I can't tell you how often I go back and run searches for old stuff, or just try to look at things like what were people (usually Tuna) reporting at certain periods of time a few years ago.

[Mark Cahill]

That's one of the strengths of Reel-Time - the depth of our archives. I'd never do anything that meant it would make it impossible to access the old posts. In fact I am still trying to find a way to import the older stuff. But it's a tough project...

Closing would only mean you couldn't post in the older threads, and I'm not even sure that's a good idea. I am just concerned that what is good advice today may not be good advice three years from now.

[Sedotti]

Simply get yourself to a harbor with some esturine areas and find a place where a creek comes in. If no creek (or even if there is), just move around the harbor and look, and especially check out the backways and lighted docks. Cinders are photophillic, that is, they're drawn to the light so dock lights draw numbers of them. They like a mud- sand bottom too. Other places to try are where creeks enter a main body of water (like LI Sound) and river mouths (and up a ways from them), like the Housatonic River, or the Mianus River. Fish around the spring tides (new and full moon), on the outgoing tide at night. Time of night doesn't matter. Dark and tide do. If the water temp is 60 degrees or warmer you'll probably be in luck. After 72 degrees you won't be. A hot, and calm night is best. Cinders hate swarming in cold, rain, and wind. They may swarm on ANY night during their mating cycles but most activity occurs around the new and full moon. The quarter moon can have a pretty good swarm too.
In recent years the swarms haven't been as big or as consistent as they were 10 and 15 years ago. I'm not sure why.
If you find cinders in the morning or at mid-day, they simply started swarming the night before, did not return to the benthos (the "top" of the bottom, where they live) and are now going out or around on the tide. Their cycle is over and they are drifing out to death.
I've written a bunch over the years about Cinder Worms. Since a friend and I could hardly find anything at all concrete about them years ago, he researched them extensivily. I went out there night after night (sometimes with my friend, oftimes not) for years to see if what he found in his research held up in the field. My friend's name is Jay Bobowitz. A man who became virtually obsessed with the Cinder Worm phenomenon, and knows more about it (by FAR) than anyone I've ever encountered, biologist, famous fisherman, anybody.
This is the most intriquing phenomenon in Northeast saltwater fishing and I love being there not only to fish it, but to just see it. Perhaps I'll write a piece about this for Reel Time. I owe them a couple of articles.

Marco

[mgustav]

Nice report Mark. On the south shore there were good spawns last year. There has already been one this year. They also happen during the day not just at night.

I have heard that over the last few years Ken Abrames and Mark Archambault have been filming many worm hatches in Rhode Island.

I look forward to them.

[tom crowley]

Does any one have pictures of what is currently being tied ?

[mgustav]

If you are refering to worm patterns, I put up a few ealier in this thread.

[Capt.Dino]

I fished a worm hatch a couple of year's ago w/Capt. Bob Robl. It was the most interesting thing i've seen in the salt. 360 degree's around the boat there were sipping Bass & we were in the then 2 feet of water. I believe it was aroung the F/M in June.

[fmw]

I think I actually recall a Peter Kaminsky article in the NY Times a few years ago about fishing a worm hatch with Capt. Bob Robl at some unidentified location on the North Shore.

[mgustav]

Yea, like fishermen are going to run to the location and try, please. If you go into a tackle shop and mention there was a worm hatch last night you will hear a unanimous and pitful "Ughhhhhh."

[bonesnbass]

I've been fishing this cinderworm swarm extensively for the past 15 years on Long Islands north shore, probably have fished 150 swarms. Best fish 43" in 1992. The last few years have not been as consistent as most of the nineties, why, why? The swarm is much easier to fish or catch if you have current, the bass more or less position themselves in the current and sip the worms as they drift by, your presentation should be dead drift and a floating line is important , so as to mend line and lenghten your drift and to stay as close to in touch with your fly as possible. The bass will just stop your fly and you need to sense this before he spits it out. (not that this is law, when there is no current short strips can be effective). But the moving water is your friend, the bass cannot inspect your offering as well, the faster the current, the better catching. I think also that different regions experiance their own swarm times. Why swarm new and full moons, supossedly the higher water from these spring tides creates pressure in the worms environment to say lets mate ( but also sometimes these spring tides are not so high, check tide charts and if its a weak tide in the moon the swarm will not happen ) Mark, I've seen swarms when the water was well above 72* in July and August, sometimes bass on them sometimes not. To get good at catching bass during the worm hatch also takes experiance and that is accomplished by spending time on the water. So go to your favorite estuary
beginning of the outgoing tide coinciding after nightfall and see, if anything the bass will be feeding on something, sandeels, grass shrimp, spearing and check the height of those tides

[mgustav]

Nice post. What I find amazing is how crazy stripers get over these worms. The splashing goes on and on for hours and it is quite loud and frantic. I know that they are basicaly slurpping them or just let them drift into their mouths so what is all the splashing about?

[bonesnbass]

Could be hickory shad doing most of the splashing, usually with the bass its quiet except now and then an explosive rise why, maybe on a large spearing feeding on the worms they're after or they get spooked as they rise to take a worm

[mgustav]

Makes sense. All those fish are present in large numbers. The stripers want a peaceful night of feeding and they are surrounded by noisy shad and freaked out silversides.

[saltyh2ofly]

Easy access place to fish....the boat launch ramp at Mattituck. Park you vehicle and right at the ramp and the dock the worms are there and bass on em plus some weakfish. A boat or kayak or canoe will only make this easier.

[mgustav]

What are you referring to saltyh20fly?

[Sedotti]

Bones,
You know, I've never seen them swarm in over 72 degree water unless perhaps the temp got there so..o..o quickly on account of super hot weather, and I couldn't swear to that. Did you notice that just recently, or years back too? Learn something new all the time.
By the way, Bones and Bass has fished the Cinder Worm swarms more than anyone I know of for the last 10 years. I mean mucho, so he knows A LOT about them from experience. I'll ask him questions about them when I can too.
Anyway, Bones, there was a lady I met fishing on the Vineyard, who is from Long Island, who told me she caught so many stripers during a swarm on the red Bass Majic. She swears by it in the cinders. She likes it better than than your other pattern, or any other cinder pattern for that matter.
My favorite worm pattern is Bone's Cinder Worm fly, which makes a wake on the surface as it goes. I , as does my friend Kevin, get lots of fish in current and also in very little current with that fly. It's not only produtive, but it's a blast to fish too, because of it's visual effect. Bones, it seems to be even more productive in recent years than it was when I started using it. It's got a foam head like a gurgler, and a short rabbit strip tail.
I believe the worms swarm most actively because of the activity of the eco system during the full and new moons and NOT because of the tide height and strength of current. I came to this conclusion when I found the surprisingly good swarms on the nights of the quarter moons (and no or little activity on other nights around that) , when tide height and movement are the least. This surprised me, and went against then current belief of worm behavior, but interestingly, not against what Jay Bobowitz had found. Later I read some eye opening stuff from Doug Hannon that gave me more insight. Doug Hannon is "The Bass Professor" on ESPN Outdoors, and he mentioned in his wonderful books (in chapters about influence and importence of the moon) that an overwealming number of world record sportfish had been caught from three days before to three days after the new and full moons, AND on the day of the QUARTER moon. He said it was because of the activity cycle. The increased activity level of the ecosystem at these times. I think it's ditto for the worms. Moon in mating, birthing, and activity. It makes sense.
Bottom line is that you can't go wrong following what Bones has to say when it comes to Cinder Worm fishing, .... or False Albacore fishing, or bonito fishing, or bass in the Sand Eels, small crabs, Bay Anchovies, or even bass on the flats fishing either. Bones n' Bass is one of the best fishermen with a fly there is on the entire Northeast coast.

Marco

[Sedotti]

I have an inkling that the worms that swarm in colder water and during the day (afternoon and post afternoon) are not Cinder Worms. Related maybe yes, but not the same species. This is not consistent with the scientific research. I have heard, though, of a swarm of cinder worms occuring once, in the area I often fish in late afternoon (but only once), and this late afternoon swarming is common in R.I. and on the Vineyard. I still wonder if these are the same species.

Bass do not take the Cinder Worms violently. They take them extremely softly. When they are spooked they rush off suddenly. When you hear feeding rushes (which are louder then feeding slurps, but nothing like being spooked), what I think you hear is a bass rolling while taking a cinder worm sub surface.
Fish do not put out more energy than they need to in aquiring prey. That cinder worm can't get away. The bass feeds on it with very little energy ependiture. Just check out them feeding when the feeding goes into the light of morning, which happens at times. You can then see how little energy they use. I also believe that bass concentrate on feeding on one worm at a time, and actually do this for all their prey. Never, but never do they "rush through a school of bait" blindly with their mouths open. I have never observed this.
Again,
Marco

[mgustav]

Like I said there are 5,000 species of Nereis worms. Cinder worms and clam worms are both polychaetes and Nereis: Clam worm (Nereis virens) and Cinder worm (Nereis limbata). There are also N. diversicolor, N. arenaceodentata, N. glanddicinta, N. succinea, et nauseum. They spawn the same way but certainly have different requirements and are different sizes. I'm fortunate that I have a house on a tidal creek off of Moriches Bay. I use a dip net every night to see what goes on and take notes. I think that there is no one pattern or one anything. Every location is different.

I fish many worm hatches in the same spot and only on one occasion have I fished it with another person and on that occasion there was also a boat anchored out 100 yards. The other times it is just me. So I can say that not many fisherman fish worm hatches where I fish. Perhaps most fisherman, overall, avoid them. I find there is nothing mysterious about worm hatches or isopod, shrimp, whatever hatches. I watch them all the time. I have found that it is really about presentation and hook set anyway.

It's also not unusual that worms spawn three days before the new and full moons. Shrimp do also as well as isopods. In addition,shrimp, juvee bunker and herring will move out of the creeks a couple of days before new and full moons. In June, just before new or full moons the creek is so full of small needlefish, herring, menhaden, butterfish, silversides, crabs, killis, weakfish, eels that my dip could make bouillabaisse on each sweep. The termites in my basement also swarm on the new moon in April. Something I don't look forward to.

[bonesnbass]

Gustav, you just said a whole lot of nothing, I read it twice and don't understand what your trying to say. What is the point to what you just wrote? Marco, maybe your just getting better at fishing the swarm, I'm sure thats part of it. I think we could all at least go by the general guidance to look for the swarms around the moons. Give me a call towards the end of the month, Bob

[mgustav]

I would like very much to learn something about worm swarms that hasn't already been stated earlier in this thread. Please make an addition. I look forward to it. I love fishing worm swarms. I think they are fun and require a great amount of alertness.

[Sedotti]

Hey Gustav,
How big are those stripers (or how big do they get?) on the worms back in there where you fish? Do you have a lot of fish chasing all that bait back there at night? You have big bunker back there too, do they ever get chased in the dark? Did you have a lot more bass back there a few years ago than you do now? I'm curious.
I read about what you originally posted, i.e. large number of spiecies, etc. after I posted. If I'd read it first I'd have posted a little differently. Sorry.
Even though they know about the cinders, fishermen simply don't chase them. Perhaps it just often happens too late in the evening and people have things to do the next day etc., or they don't feel as comfortable fishing at night, whatever. I've freely broadcasted where I fish worms for years and almost all the time I've been alone fishing. Curiously, last year I saw the most fly fishermen ever at that spot. There really is only one place that I know of that gets consistent numbers of fishermen during swarms. Bones knows where that is for sure.
It's very interesting. During the times I've fished at night, May through November, the only worms I've ever seen swarm in my area (Rye, Port Chester, Greenwich) are those particular cinders we looked into and checked the research on.
Jay looked ALL OVER (and I mean a lot of places, coming up with virtually nada, except for the few bits by fly fishermen) by the way, he was a researcher for television at the time, and finally found some significant stuff up at Woods Hole which was done by a medical doctor doing research on celluler biology in 1913. The research was done at Woods Hole.
Jay set up a saltwater tank in his office especially for cinder worms, and we used to watch them tunnel about (like you do as a kid with your ant farm), and then come up and swarm in the tank. Obsessed?
We will get together Bones. I look forward to it. My e mail address is marksedotti@hotmail.com

Mark

[mgustav]

The creek is jam packed with juvenile life. However, I have never seen a striper in there. I have gone out in the kayak day and night and neither heard them feeding nor seen them or marked any on the fishfinder. I do continue to check. I find it hard to believe that they don't come in but there is very little current. Perhaps others have found them.

There are weakfish that spawn and enter in late May and leave in early September. In June and July at around 4 AM there is so much weakfish activity. It can sound like a public pool on Saturday. I have seen at first light enormous splashes. Starting at sundown there is non stop action. They make the same popping sound as stripers.

When the weaks begin to leave the cocktail blues enter. The bunker schools this past year were bigger than the last few years. But this past year there were no weakfish in the creek and much less Hickory Shad in the bay than the year before.

The bass that feed on the worm swarms are no bigger than 24".

This coming year shall be interesting because as you may have heard the inlet was seriously dredged as well as the east and west cuts and markers were added. I have already noticed that the current in my creek has picked up. The sandbar at the front of the inlet was dredged from 9 feet to 20 feet and 3,000 feet out into the ocean. This will definitely have an impact on the bay as far as flow and temperature. Plus, I hope, more stripers and bait entering the bay.

Shinnecock was also dredged.