Widow suing the Freeport Hudson Anglers

[venture]

The widow of one of the drowned particapants in the Freeport Hudson Shark Tourni, held in June, is sueing the management and sponsers, and the Captain of the boat for ten million bucks...Hope she gets it from the club..

The managementand their sponsers, I feel, were EXTREMELY negligent, and must be held liable to the max..They openly solicited boat owners with boats of 21 ft and up, with only a hand held VHF as mandatory electronics to enter for a mere fee of $250.00. This was no invitational tourny for a specific charity inviting 50 ft Buddy Davis's, with professional crews. This was a money making tourny for the Freeport Hudson Association inviting amatures with hand held VHFs????

At the Captains meeting the night before, with the winds howling from the east, they made an announcement that they would send a weather boat out 12 miles and report the conditions prior to the start, and if the waves were five feet or less they would not postpone it. I'm sure this made many feel safe.

Now any management who has 21 footers with hand held VHFs in the tourny should know that they have some amatures in their ranks...And what does an amature know about 5 footers...The next morning, the report from the weather boat said that it was OK...So the amature feels safe, and off these guys went, even though NOAA was calling for 5-7, and the local inshore bouy off Fire Island was recording full 7 footers, which with that easterly blow, could mean 10 footers by the time anyone got out there.

And the poor guy, with his poor crew in this piece of sh!t 25 foot pleasure boat may have been swamped as soon as he tried turning around and came abeam sea....

Man, I hope this poor woman gets her retribution and gets some closure to her and her families pain...These managers must pay dearly...And let all other tournament managers take heed...

Howie

[Tuna]

I feel quite ambivalent about this situation.

On the one hand, Howie points out the reasons why the tournament organizers could be held responsible for the situation. It does seem more care should have been taken to determine and communicate conditions and emphasize the need for experience and a bit more in the way of boat size to amateurs.

On the other hand, NO CAPTAIN can avoid the personal responsibility of their crew. If you own a boat and you take people out on it, YOU are responsible for the safety of those on board. Being inexperienced is NOT an excuse.

I know this may sound insensitive and inappropriate, but I see far too care free an attitude expressed by many boat owners, and I have seen my share of negative consequences as a result of it. Holding parties other than a boat captain responsible for crew safety merely reinforces what I see as a very lax attitude out there.

So I am quite ambivalent about this one. Perhaps both parties are responsible, but the captain should always be held primarily responsible.

If you are about to go out and fish on your boat with guests, PLEASE exercise restraint regarding your ability to handle conditions. The lives of your guests depend on it.

Note: I am no angel. I have made my share of bad judgement calls on the water, and some of these have placed people other than myself at risk. But I try to learn and I hold myself accountable for my actions.

[BIGE]

Respectfully disagree with you Howie. Perhaps your argument would hold water if it was in fact a 21 footer with a green captain and a handheld vhf. The facts were that the boat was a 25 footer with at least 2 survival suits, full electronics including fixed mount vhf, and a captain with years experience (I recall reading that he has owned boats 25 years, but not sure). Perhaps the only item they didn't have, which probably would have saved their lives, was an epirb.

This woman may have a legitimate claim against the captain of the ship. I don't think anyone BUT the captain has responsibility for this incident.

I doubt if she won 10 million from the club she would do anything but destroy the club. She would be lucky if they have more than a couple hundred thousand in insurance (if any) and it certainly won't bring her husband back.

[venture]

I agree with both of you as far as the captain of his ship has the ultimate responsiblity for his guests or crew. But in this case, the tourny has a responsibility towards it's participants especially when the regs are such that a 21 footers with only a hand held VHF are able to enter...This increases the manager's responsibities don't you think??

In any event, there is major contraversy over this suit, and the widow is also suing the dead captain's estate...And yes he utimately is responsible. But due to the "hired" weather boat giving the OK, even when NOAA was forcasting 7 footers, and the F.I. Bouy was reporting 7 footers, many, including myself find that the managers acted irresponsibly and should have postponed the event until the next day...But the next day was father's day, and some feel that also influenced some of the managers because they had other plans.

When you run a tournament, you take some responsibility...And when you run an offshore tournament that includes ill equipt 21 footers, you must take even more responsibilty...

Not that I am a tournament fisherman, nor a shark fisherman, but I do hope that tournaments will be held in a much more responsible manner...To get all these "Yahoos" charged up, and send a "weather boat out" that says AOK, that's just pure neglegance.........And yes, if you want to say it's souly the captain's responsibility in this particular case, so be it, yet the managers put all involved "under the influence"....

And for us guys, not in any tournaments, I trust we all take our responsibilities very seriously...In fact that's why my boat is on blocks right now....For a complete "safety survey" done by an independant survey company, checking all safety funtions of my boat....Beleive me it is costing me thousands and it is all well spent...Before I put a crew on this boat that's going up north, I make certain I do everything "within my power" to insure safety...........Howie

[BIGE]

Agree that the tournament shouldn't have let out 21 footers with a hh vhf in these conditions (or even a glassy day 20 miles off) and I imagine those rules will be changed if another tourny ever happen.

But, I would head out in a well equipped 25 in 5-7. Not any day since the ride would beat the tar out of you, but maybe for a tourny. A ditch bag with a hh submersible and life jackets and these guys would have been back at the dock by noon. There were probably 100 boats within 10 miles.

Other than that I'm just going to say I don't know enough of the real details of the tourny and accident ot comment further. What did the tourny say exactly about the weather, was there a limit on the seas, possible refund, calcutta involved (big money), what caused the ship to go down (submerged object or wave over the side), what was said in the original call to the coast guard (and how did that get screwed up). And things we may never know. Maybe the captain was incapacitated. A thousand little things could shift the blame for this to 10 different people and we will probably never know the real facts.

I don't want this to go the direction it has gone on so many other boards. I like everyone here too much. A healthy discussion on offshore safety should be good for us all.


Rich

[joshr]

As Rich states, the legal liability in this case is a complex matter--both of law I imagine and of facts certainly.

What I think we all seem to agree on, and what seems to me to be the right area of discussion for a board like this, is that:

1) the tourny management was reckless in its cavalier intimation of AOK safety, especially knowing they had opened the event to very small boats.

2) Captains need to take their responsibilites very seriously and err on the side of caution...not only in go/no-go decisions but in ensuring the right level of safety gear aboard given conditions. As Rich said, a few other pieces of equipment and they likely would have been fine. Unlike Rich, I would not head out in those conditions in a 25' Wellcraft; we all have our own levels of tolerable risk and discomfort. But a captain who does venture off in those seas and that type of boat better have a full complement of safety gear--certainly an EPIRB--and better be confident all aboard understand the kind of ride it's going to be and the associated risks.

3) There are a lot--ever increasing numbers it seems--of very inexperienced boaters out there who are out of their depth and exposing their crews/passengers/friends to far more risk than they or those aboard realize. I remember when I was in Sea School getting my Capt.'s license being completely amazed at how little some of the people in class knew about basic rules of the road, boat handling, navigation, safety etc. I'm not talking about expert level stuff here; I myself have only about 12 years of powerboating experience, almost all of it inshore/nearshore. But everyone in that class is supposed to have logged a lot of hours on the water (of course many are lying on their documentation), and there were some shockingly naive folks.

Not sure what the answers are. Boating licenses that require passing a written test? On-the-water tests? I certainly hope that tragedies like this one do inspire boaters to be more safety conscious and to educate themselves.

--Josh

[martinatpw]

Hi guys, haven't talked in a while. Was out east chasing small BFT's off chatham with a little success... This woman is not entitled to 10 million dollars. Although that seems to be the american way these days. These guys were experienced and should have not taken the chance with the weather. The bigger boats did not go out in some cases. They should have put their suites on or made a better mayday call with their location. This is a very dangerous sport. People die every year. It was a very unfortunate event, but they took their lives into their own hands when they went out. We never really know what mother nature will do. The boat going out to check the waves was a joke to begin with because the weather changes every hour.

[FLYRODER]

I believe she has a good case against the captains estate. He is the 1 that made that final decission to stay on the very rough water instead of turning around and come back in. As for her suit against the club. I hope she doesn't win a penny from them. For if she wins I can see it happening now. Even a weekend surf striper/bluefish contest will no longer be the same. Can you imagine the south shore surf classic that runs from FRI thru SUN and have somebody drown in a rough surf or break a leg or an arm from falling off 1 of the jetties. We will be seeing lawsuits even when this happens.

[venture]

Here are some facts.

The night before the tournament, at the captain's meeting, the management, knowing the weather was marginal at best said they were sending a "weather boat out 12 miles"... and if the waves were no bigger than 5 feet, they would give it the OK...

After the tragedy, the crew of the weather boat was questioned...They said they went out 12 miles...Then when they were questioned by the investigators they changed their story...They said they went out 5 miles. Now there is much confusion as to how far they really went out, and if they even went out at all...

Next, NOAA was calling for 5-7, with the F.I. Bouy recording steady 7 footers....Why didn't the management take the bouy report and just postpone it, as they said they would at the meeting the night before if the waves were over 5 feet??? And remember who they were dealing with... Guys with hand held radios, 21 footers, and a good hang over from the party the night before.

Next, why wouldn't they make the participants comply with simple offshore safety equiptment...Rafts, epirbs, etc.... Especially when they knew, or should have known, that the weather was horrendous...

There was a mayday call from the boat, but the CG didn't get there in time...and no one, nor the boat was found until days later when some of the bodies washed up as far away as the New Jersey beaches...

Yes, the captain made a lethal mistake. He may have stayed at the dock that day if it was not for a tornament, but his money was paid and everyone was charged up. Wouldn't a prudent management just postpone it, and start it up the next day?

I feel, the captain was ultimately responsible, but he decision was clouded by the enthusiasm of a tournament. If your kid died of an over dose, would he be the only one responsible for his own death? Wouldn't the guy who gave him the drug have any responsibitity?

And if this does affect how other tournaments are held, that's a good thing. I think comparing this to a surf tournament a stretch, but if the undertow was horrendous that day they should also postpone it...And let other tournaments beware. If they are to allow 21 footers with minimal equiptment into a tournament, as apposed to an invitational tournament involving highly experienced crews on big ocean going craft, they should understand who they are dealing with and act accordingly.

As the captain is responsible for his ship and crew, the tournament is responsible for it's participants.....Howie

[oldman]

that's why i'm against tournaments. when money is involved people do stupid things. oh we have to do this look at the money we spent or look at how much we could win. why can't people just fish for fun? does every thing in a persons life have to be competitive? competition makes for poor judgment. i'm sorry for the women's loss but you know when you take a boat out off shore what the dangers are. you should be smart enough to say no i don't think its safe. i'm a grown man i don't need some one else telling me if its safe or not.
i carry a hand held weather radio in my bag 365 days a year and i listen to it before i go out. i don't need a boat out there telling me its safe to come out. i'll make up my own mind as to how safe it is.