flaming the Redbone in the Star [Archive]

Stonyflyer

09-28-2002, 09:50 AM

Sorry to see the Redbone tourney get a black eye from
a few over zealous guides. Seeing that this was the first tourney up here since last years cancellation you would think everyone would be on their best behaviour.There is a sense of entitlement from a nbr of guides who think the point belongs to them and all others be damned. I thought the guide boat assoc. was addressing this but from what I've seen on the rocks these past two yrs the problem has grown worse. Many of us have grown up on Long Island waters first fishing for flounder in the spring and snappers in the summer. A right of passage on becoming a fishermen. Those guys fishing the rocks have been coming there for over 80yrs and yet we have boorish behaviour by a few boat charters who pushed themselves as far up on the rocks as possible. In fact they get so close that you can hear their cell phones go off. Ah flyfishing at it's best. What would Sir Issac think!! No wonder
flyfishermen walking the beaches of Montauk get dirty looks
from the surfcasters. And we're suppose to be the group with
the best sporting ethics. Those days are gone!

Spigola

09-28-2002, 04:30 PM

I'm fishing more than 45 years and more than 40 of them at Montauk. I fished with spinning and conventional on the beach and in the last 6 or 7 years took up the flyrod. However, I have manners, not like the guides who like to crowd the beaches around Montauk and elsewhere. Although this isn't a phenomena that is exclusive to Montauk, it is more noticeable because of the many fishermen fishing the area.

I will not fish with flyfishing guides in this area because of what I have seen going on over the past few years. I myself restrict my flyrodding when around spincasters and stick to my big Lami graphite rods. When in Rome etc.

When are you knuckleheads going to learn. It is people like me who are your bread and butter. You won't always have the high end fisherman out here for tournaments. If you run up on the beach when I am fishing there, I sure as hell won't ever call you for a charter, nor will my friends, who are very numerous.

I do feel badly for those of you charter captains who don't resort to those tactics of running up on the beach and screw the surf fisherman. It's because of the pinhead skippers and their incredible arrogance that we flyfisermen and women get a bad name.

Just be careful guys. A J-8 block tin is a hell of a thing to have bouncing off a windscreen during a bass blitz. I know lots of fed up surfrats. Learn to back-off and give us a bit of room. We have maybe 450 feet to fish with a good cast. You guys and your mega rigs have the whole damned ocean.

I would have thought that we'd have learned to respect each other after the tragedies that occurred last year.

What's the use. You who know who you are are a sorry bunch.:mad:

Spigola:mad: :mad:

Tuna

09-28-2002, 06:45 PM

Actually, I am not sure we all know who we or they are, and that's part of the problem. There's some cases where it is obvious a boating fisherman has crowded the beach too close, and other cases where its grey. Some of us may stray too close only when the excitement of the moment draws us too close in, some of us cross this line more often and yes, there appear to be some boats who respect no limits when chasing a feeding school. Although this in no way reduces the point shore surf fishermen make (that we have the whole ocean, and can be real a$$holes when we chose to kill their shot at the fish), I think it is this grey line, and the way the excitement can draw people over it, that helps justify the attitude of those who never respect limits in this matter. Its only part of it (I do think there is a sense of entitlement that plays a bigger role), but anyone who is out there in a boat and sometimes goes too close to shore helps act as a screen for the repeat offenders, giving them the chance to act like everyone does it, why be the only boat that doesn't.

Sad thing here is the tournament was only a focused example of what happens all season, and not just boat fishermen versus shore fishermen. During the tournament, outer Shag was like a zoo - when the albies popped up, 6 or more boats would be moving to them at the same time, sometimes with less than sane and courteous intent and method. With the fish in only a few spots, and the lure of the competition beaconing, there were some ugly moments out there.

Oddly, the day after, Saturday, was not much different. No tournament, but the fish were only in a few spots, like outer Shag, and it was a zoo.

I heard stories of some of the shore hugging the two days of the tournament - I heard one move described as worse than previously seen (which must have been pretty bad). Its too bad, fly fishermen with boats had enough of a bad name at Montauk before the tournament. Here's to me trying to corss that line less often, regardless of the excitement and madness of the moment.

Spigola

09-29-2002, 10:00 AM

I applaud your resolve, Tuna. But I think I would not run my boat onto a reef or in the way of an ocean going ship in the name of "the excitement of the moment".

Imagine if that logic were used when you see a beautiful woman who is with someone else who happens to be twice your size.

Restraint is mandatory if a man is to be a captain of a fishing vessel. Period!

Stonyflyer

09-29-2002, 03:58 PM

That's a decent and thoughtful response Tuna and I respect
your view. Only thing is we all must exhibit restaint in all things that we do. If I'm standing on a crowded beach and
the guy to my right is into fish I'm not going throw my
line across his and chance a tangle. If I do there will be
reprecussions. Maybe that's the point. The boys in the
boat probably feel there are no reprecussions for their
action so why not do and screw those guys on the rocks.
I'm disappointed that John in his week recap only mentioned
how successful the tourney was and not one word about
the need for proper etiquette. There's been a push to
encourage charter boat captains to practice catch and
release by the flyboys in the name of conservation and
sportsmanship but can these guys really talk about sportsmanship when they tromp over other fisherman's
right to catch fish without them being put down or
move off the rocks and beaches by boats you can actually
hop into from the rocks. I've charter flyboats in the past
but maybe it's about time to make bad behaviour accountable
and start posting the boats that don't respect all fishermen
rights fish.

joshr

09-29-2002, 08:04 PM

As someone who has known Peter (AKA Tuna) for quite a while, I just want to jump in and let the group know that, depite his self-flaggelation on the issue, he has always been a very respectful, sportsmanlike, and restrained helmsman out there. It is true that many of the Montauk regulars--guides and recreational guys alike--are incredibly aggressive and inconsiderate...not only to the surf anglers but to each other as well. Several have used the excuse that "I have a guy on my boat paying $450 who can't cast 30 feet and I gotta get him hooked up when there's a chance." That's nonsense. I do hope the surf guys appreciate that there are a lot of us boat flyrodders out there--again, both guides and recreational anglers--who are every bit as outraged by much of the conduct you're upset about. (And a lot of us have spent a lot of hours on the rocks right next to you over the years throwing bucktail jigs and pencil poppers too!). Anyway, Peter isn't one of the offenders out there at all.

Also, I hope we can keep conservation issues separate from these issues of basic decency and respect for each other's space. I'm sure it can be maddening to have someone preaching about one issue while, at the same time, being an offender on another. But nevertheless, it would be a shame if these offenses on the one issue became an excuse for neglect on the other.

--Josh

Tuna

09-30-2002, 06:46 AM

My reference to a grey line was primarily intended to have those of us who fish from boats think about not contributing to the problem, even if so slightly. I think the other causes listed in this thread are more fundamental causes, but I believe big problems can be harder to solve when small contributing factors are not worked with the larger ones.

I certainly do not consider myself a persistant offender but I am no angel (as few of us are). I learned years ago that staying outside of shore fishermen's casting distance was a good idea, and it seemed like a reasonable distance to keep. Also, I prefer albies to catching bass in big feeds, and the albies are often further from shore than the bass. Also, I feel I have learned a lot out there and often the shore or other boat corwd move is NOT the best way to catch fish. But I fish aggressively, and I can get carried away by the moment, and so can we all. Its no excuse, but its out there.

So far this year I have only been yelled at once. First day of the albies, and I chased a pod on the south shore aggressively. Another boat felt I put them down. Oddly, the boat elected to inform me of this by driving 10 feet in front of me to discuss it, and they put the second coming of this pod down. For everyone other than the obvious repeat offenders, its a grey line, lets think of it while we are out there.

Thanks Josh for your assessment of my general cvonduct out there. I have never seen you draw the line in a manner I would question, nor have I seen Rich or Ted S do so. But I imagine none of us are angels always - lets just be continue to be sensitive to the rights of others (and our own safety) so that our name as a class of fisherman does not drop any lower.

BIGE

09-30-2002, 09:05 AM

As a flyfisherman and boater I am embarrassed by the conduct displayed every weekend at the point. It's shameful. People crowding the shore and fighting with each other. Putting down fish and cutting lines. Frank and I witnessed two guys yelling at each other off Shag yesterday. The confrontation ended with, "I'll see you at the dock."

I always give other boats extra room around a blitz. This often results in another boat cutting between me and the fish I'm casting to. Even if I'm only 40 ft. from the fish!! I could name some guides, but I won't. They know who they are.

The only time this year I felt I was too close to shore was fighting an albie while by myself. I ended up starting the boat and driving away with the fish still on, but I felt like an a$$hole when I saw a pencil popper land next to the boat.

As a former (and sometimes current) surf fisherman, I completely agree with you guys. Give them some space!

If you guys on the rocks want to name the boats in too close, I say go for it. Maybe they really don't know.

Rich

teds

09-30-2002, 04:31 PM

I have been fishing the surf in Montauk for 35 years.Now as a boater I regard the domain of the surfcaster as sacred. The limitations and restrictions of a beach fishermans access to moving schools of fish are obvious.It was infuriating to be on the beach and finally have a shot at some fish only to have a boater come in and break up a school. I still see it today from my boat and none of the excuses are acceptible. The rude behavior of a few is ruining it for many.Montauk, although it's reputation is large, is a small place.
I was witness to some of the boat to boat rage on sunday.Some of it was simply honest mistakes made out of zeal and excitement.Some of it was in the name of making a buck by people who fish Montauk for a few weeks a year. The "professionals" need to talk to each other and find a way to exist
in some harmony with recreational boaters as well as the beach casters.They
have created a situation that needs to be dealt with before it gets out of control.

teds

Stonyflyer

09-30-2002, 07:46 PM

In reply to Josh's post. Though I have not met him,Tuna
from his posts appears to be genuine in his replies. His postings
appear well thought out and reasonable. Regarding the
conservation issue. I attended the Striper hearing held
at Stonybrook and supported the CCA position. Maybe we
can get a guide from the light tackle association to a reply
on thread regarding issues that have been brought up and the
means of finding a solution. "When the Moon brought up
a acre of ------!!!! You fill it in and the answer isn't bass!

Orca

dragonfly

10-01-2002, 11:32 AM

Dear Fellow Fisherman,

I have read all the rhetoric about the Flyboats and the Redbone. I started to write a dissertation on the topic but thought better of it however I would like to make a few points.

1. Blaming Redbone is at best unfair; this event is about giving back to the community and the fight to save innocent children from certain death.

2. In the defense of the Redbone the rules committee specifically told ALL CAPTAINS STAY OFF THE BEACH!!!
(Obviously some must of missed it!)

3. The PFLGA does not condone interference by our captains with the Surfcasters (but we are not the police).

4. Personally I did not witness the incident but wish the captain, who did would have brought it to my attention during the event, I would have gone over that one rule again to hopefully mitigate the tensions.

5. This is issue is bigger than the Redbone.

6. I would personally coordinate a meeting with LIBBA and the PFLGA to solve this ongoing problem, all the captains I spoke with are genuinely concerned over this.

7. I would also thank the surfcasters for their patience on this so far and not targeting people on boats to avoid certain injury.

8. We need to solve this with out incident, or we are all losers with outside intervention namely the state.

Finally I my thoughts on the East Hampton Star;
Personally I think it is easier to add fuel to a fire than to act as a mediator. To slam a charity event on the actions of a few is irresponsible and dangerous, I can only hope the article does incite people and cause emotions to go unchecked. If that happens the media has once again become embroiled in an issue not simply the reporting of it. I spoke to the Editor and I think he knows how I feel. For next years event I am entertaining a rule that would penalize captains who interfere with the surfcasters and their right to the beach.

I hope this clears up a few things and give you all some insight to how I feel on the topic of boats encroaching the beach.

Only The Best!!!
Capt. Scott Holder
Dragon FLy Charters.

PS I'm not hiding behind any reporters or AKA.
If I get too close please let me know I will gladly move off, I hope I have never interfered with the surfcasters in the past.

joshr

10-01-2002, 11:54 AM

Scott--

I'm glad you entered the fray here. I shouldn't put words in others' mouths, but I suspect we all agree that the concerns expressed in this thread and elsewhere are not directed at the Redbone itself, and certainly not at you personally. On the contrary, I'm sure most very much admire your dedication to this fundraising for a good cause, and anyone who has ever coordinated a large event knows just how much time and energy it takes.

That said, I can certainly understand how hard it must be for you to read these things after investing an enowrmous amout of time and effort into putting on a charity event. In my opinion, you're right that reporters and all of us should be more careful not to cut down the whole because they are displeased by a part. It's a few boatmen out there--both pros and recreationals--who are inconsiderate and reckless again and again, and these few are not only making tempers flare but are making it harder for a great event like yours to shine by letting the worse side of our sport overshadow the best.

Keep up the good work, Scott!

--Josh Reibel

BIGE

10-01-2002, 12:25 PM

Scott, you may also want to post on SOL website. Most of the Montauk surf guys are regulars there and they already have a thread started on the Long Island forum. I'm glad to see you have posted here and commend your effort for a good cause.

I have never seen Dragon Fly in too close to shore.

http://www.stripersonline.com/cgi-bin/ubb_547C/Ultimate.cgi?action=intro

Mark Cahill

10-01-2002, 12:27 PM

during albie season. We see it in New England, particularly at Martha's Vineyard, where things have come close to fisticuffs and gun play on occassion.

To blame the Redbone for creating the problem is akin to blaming the NFL for excessive drinking during the Super Bowl.

However, it does make a convenient lightning rod for an issue that's always ready to boil over.

dragonfly

10-01-2002, 01:11 PM

Dear BIGE,

Feel free to take my reply and post it where ever you feel appropriate, I stand by statements and consider myself a man of my word.

Only The Best !!!

Capt. Scott

Tuna

10-01-2002, 01:53 PM

Adding to Rich's comment, I also have never seen Dragon Fly too close to shore, or cutting off another boat. A matter of fact, during the Redbone I tried to yell a hello over Scott's way, but he was never close enough to hear me. I thought of moving closer, but it was during the Shag shuffle, didn't want to add to the confusion that day.

Hey, how are ya? Hope you are having a good season.

Peter Rothwell

Sedotti

10-03-2002, 03:59 PM

This was an incredibly negetive view about an incredible tournament and experience that went off superbly. A written piece reminding me of what the Russians would have written about an superb American event that took place in, say, the seventies. The writer should be embarrased by this piece. Maybe he should have spent some time around the tournament too. That would have helped. Perhaps he wasn't invited and thought he should be. Oh well. Ted Williams had a hard time (with reporters) this way too.
I was in the tournament, and took part in all the festivities. I was extremely impressed with the behavior and demeanor of all the guides and anglers I saw. I feared going in that it might be crowded, ill tempered, and grossly discourteous, and lo and behold, it wasn't. People were happy (guides, anglers,event people and staff, there was a joy to the event) and courteous to eachother. I actually felt proud of everybody. Now, some may have gotten too close to the beach a few times, but that was were the bass were, and where they are in visible concentration this time of year. It was a tournament, so the shore guys should maybe understand, and maybe give just a little (JUST A LITTLE?) for those two days. ( What! At Montaulk? Are you kidding? Where the surfcasters hate the fly guys, and the charter guys hate the fly and light tackle guys, and the commercial guys hate everybody who isn't them?) That was what was great about the tournament! (not that last sentence, stupid!) This. The people involved didn't manifest any of that hate whatsoever. Things were, in fact, just the oppiset. Also, I didn't see all the fuss described in the article. And about the boats "crowding" the beach. Just WHEN do the shore fishermen NOT complain about the boats being too close? They'd scream bloody murder if they came within half a mile of shore. It's New York. It's Montauk. But the tournament actually trancended that. God Bless em! THAT was special!
You know, just a few days ago, I was out at Nirvana (you know, wide open Fall run Montauk) Boats were close, too close?, I don't know, but they were still outside. The bass schools were right on the beaches for the most part. Now, so many surfcasters were casting far over and beyond these fish at their feet and out towards the boats which actually had another school of bass and bait further out amoung them. Why were they doing this? Territoriality? Fishing ignorance? The fish were right there, you could usually wade in them. It was interesting. So few of the surfcasters were hooking up with the super concentrated bass too. Was territoriality more importent than catching the fish? (their schools weren't being bothered by any boat casters either) If these shore casters had copied the very small bait these bass were selectivily feeding on, and not continued to use their big bucktails, plugs, and diamond jigs, they would have JUICED the fish. And they could have just flipped the bait into the bass masses. They didn't have to bother with even thinking about any boats, and caught fish until their bodies were slimed completely. But it was heave it as far as you could, and maybe you could thump a boat.
Anyway, back to the Redbone. The set up, venue (Montauk Yacht Club), organization, dinners, actually everything concerning the tournament flowed wonderfully. The spirit of all was high and jolly. (it was a fun and very positive experience) The guides treated eachother wonderfully. Lots of fish were caught. The Redbone people couldn't believe how rich this fishery is. They never had catch rates like this. And all the fish, as grand angler champion Richard Reagan wistfully reminded us, were released. This fact alone is a fine precedent for Montauk, if anything is. That is what should have been written about in the Star article.
This was an event that should have been (and should be) highly praised, and something that Montauk, East Hampton, all involved, and simply fishermen, should be very proud of.
Mark Sedotti

Stonyflyer

10-03-2002, 09:43 PM

Whew!! Mark that was a long one. Took my computer 10min
to download that page. I don't think you give the guys on
the rocks enough credit Mark. It's not like the boats just
started pushing the shore at the Redbone it's been going
on for sometime. To say the bass were on the beach and
that's where you have to go leads me to believe you really
haven't read the previous posts. It must be a long time since you wore korkers Mark because it's alot of working
moving around at the point and those guys don't have
the entire Atlantic behind them to fish. But this has all been
covered. I flyfish 95% of time and I wouldn't think of
bringing my flyrod to point and taking out so much space.
Some of those guys go out week after week and take their
vacation time to get a shot at some decent fish. Give em
some space. I take my hat off to all the people who worked
hard for charity events. The real heros of this world are the
people who day in and day out take care of sick children and
family members. Sept 11 taught New Yorkers to be kinder
to each other. I hope we haven't forgotten that painful
lesson.
Pat Brennan aka Stonyflyer

phillyflyguy

10-08-2002, 04:17 AM

Hey everyone,

I was personally involved in a (the) incident off turtle cove (sep 22?) involving much cussing and nonsense.

I was the guy at the helm in the rental boat and I had no intention of saying anything about it until I read this thread and it occured to me that the guides who acted like such jerks to us were likely doing it to others.

So briefly here is what happened from my perspective - the bass were in tight to turtle cove (no, not within surfcaster range). I had come in on an angle and backed down specifically, so that my casters line wouldnt come close to the boat on my port (at least 40 feet away). At no time was the bow casters line ever close to this boat until..... another Professional Guide literally cut us off under hard throttle to our starboard stern.

I dont know if the captain of this second boat is so incompetent that he failed to notice that we were in reverse or so rude that he didnt care that he placed his boat within 15 feet of us- directly in our path. At this point, I am on an immedeate collision course and have to place the boat in forward gear - while the crappy hydraulics of the rentaboat kicked in, the other guide accused me of coming in between the two boats.

I did not come in between two boats - the other guy wasnt within a 100 feet until I was 5 feet from my intended position.

At this point the one guide accused us of creating the close call (and I have seen and forgiven and seen forgiven many incidents closer than this)- he only complained of my partners cast being too close not that he felt he was about to be in a collision as i had.

This 'professiona'l guide then shooed us off - to which my partner replied 'dont shoo me' ( he said it loudly but it still seems pretty reasonable)- at this point the guide said 'im warning you dont lift that fly line again ... or else!'

Okay, are we the only ones who think this a hilariously stupid thing to say out on the water !?!? It was at this point that my partner suggested ' it be continued at the dock' - Get it? saying 'or else' to someone on the water (especially when you are the professional with clients on board) is an absurd threat. My partner didnt want to continue anything at the dock but was pointing out in no uncertain terms that if this guide felt we did anything we should be answerable to, he knew where to find us (we were in a rental boat) and that his threats on the water were ludicrous, poor etiquette and seamanship and really freekin rude.

After several minutes of hearing this guy verbally attacking my partner over something caused by the other guide (who remained strangely silent though he was within 40 feet and could have easily cleared up the whole situation) I lost my temper.

I was the one who shouted the first expletives - namely 'shut the <bleep> up' . For that I apologise to all you guys who heard it and even to the guy I said it too, but uhhhhh you were being an obstinate and rude b******* and you did not understand that I placed the cast near your boat trying to avoid a collision with your b******* buddy.

Even if I had caused a close call like a landlubber out of control - which I'm not and I wasn't -Isnt the only proper response ' hey guys, watch out your fly was coming really close to me' ? The risk of a fly impalement - while not to be taken lightly - is essentially one we all are willing to take -the very nature of montauk fishing obviously means people are going to be working in tight to each other. As my partner pointed out you were acting like he had impaled you not like he came close.

There are enough fish for everyone. For some fishing is a way to relax and enjoy life not a way to make money.

BIGE

10-08-2002, 08:20 AM

It's kind of funny that you described that situation. In fact, it's not the situation I was describing. The incident I spoke of happened off Shag and was between two brand new and very nice boats. Not rentals.

I have a feeling that something like this could be described just about every weekend.

sage fly guy

10-08-2002, 08:21 AM

Phillyflyguy,

Normally I just read the New England board, but this one caught my attention. First thing I would do is let the board know the name of the Charter Capt who owns all that ocean out there so everyone can send him a rental fee every time they launch. I bet an ounce of bad press would cure comments like he made.

teds

10-08-2002, 10:02 AM

Phillyflyguy,

The vast majority of the guides at Montauk are dedicated, hard working men and women. However there are a few who feel they own the place even though they come to Montauk for a few days a year.You might want to consider posting the name or description of the boats involved. It might help the bulk of the responsible guides to weed out the few who are creating the problems with other boaters as well as the surf fishermen.

teds

dragonfly

10-09-2002, 12:38 PM

Gentlemen,

Phillyflyguy is exactly part of the issue surrounding the Redbone, I am happy he put the date in (Sept. 22) his thread. You see the Redbone was held on Sept. 18-20. However he has other legitimate issues. As a point I witnessed a guy in a flats boat being berated at the point for getting to close yesterday (Oct 8) by the surfcasters. This particular boat I have not seen before nor is it the guy a member of the PFLGA. For all I know he is a recreational fisherman, there will be times where you might be involved in an argument with what you think is a guide but may very well be another recreational angler. Lets' face it guys, at the point the scene becomes similar to a four lane highway being funneled down to one at rush hour, everyone is trying to slide into position, and every argument has two sides. In the fall you cannot avoid being crowded, everyone who is involved in that situation needs to deal with tight quarters and above all proceed slowly and deliberately around each other. Communication is key we all need to talk to one another to keep it safe as well as pleasurable for all. More chatter on the water would be helpful. Get to know the guides as well as each other better, this will go a long way to quell hostilities. If we all know each other I think we will be less prone to flying off the handle. We all need to remember we are out there for fun or to provide fun and it might require at times to think first before we act, Guides and Recrreational fisherman alike.
I would hate to see us talk about each other in a negative way on this message board, that was a mistake I once made and regret. There is an old saying once you say something you can never take it back.
Also if you have issues with a particular guide E-mail me through the PFLGA WEB site at www.PFLGA.org and I will see if I can help.

Only The Best!
Capt. Scott

cragganmor

10-09-2002, 12:56 PM

i wasn't there when it happened, but i have fished the cove off and on for nearly 20 years. one cannot discount the fact that surfcasters themselves fight (like in a brawl) among one another, crowding each other off the prime rocks and cutting each other off; it's alpha male, king of the jungle, who's the biggest a** time, all too often. don't fish there anymore for that reason.

even if all boats were closed off from fishing the cove, i truly believe that surfcasters would still be at each others throats. too many fishermen crammed into one spot. it got much worse after they opened the access road to the cove; the park 'n fish crowd set up camp and turned it into shagwong south. sorry, guys, but ya gotta share the water. your empire pass doesn't entitle you to a private surfcasting camp.

now this doesn't excuse the guides from behaving badly. but i think they'll quietly come up with a solution. remember that there were over 40 boats on the water for the redbone tourney and only a fraction of those boats guide montauk regularly. i think that both sides can cut each other a little slack.

BIGE

10-09-2002, 01:09 PM

I have no idea who this might be, but read on another site that there was a guide from out east who poked a hole in his boat on Weakfish Rock and grounded his boat in Moriches Bay throwing his sport out the front of the boat into the water.

Can anybody confirm or discredit these reports? If they are true, who was it?

fmw

10-09-2002, 01:57 PM

Rich:

I saw that post also. I don't know if he actually guides, but based on the description in the post, it seemed to refer to the guy who has a widely distributed Fly Fishing for Striped Bass video that has been around for some years along with selling other products. He usually has a booth at the fly fishing shows and could be thought of as "the Ron Popeil of saltwater fly fishing."

Have no idea if those stories are true however.

Stonyflyer

10-09-2002, 08:22 PM

Maybe the best bet would be to get some state officials in to
observe what goes on at the point every weekend. It's possible one of their solutions would be a no-boat zone a
certain nbr of yards from shore around the point. There seems
to be a great proliferation of guides over the past 5yrs. When
does overcrowding the point stop before someone gets hurts.
I don't think anyone would want a no boat zone but if the
attitude continues of "who cares,tough,and it wasn't me!
it will come to that.

fmw

10-09-2002, 10:00 PM

One only need look to John N. Cole's 1978 classic fishing book "Striper: A Story of Fish and Man" to see that the issues here are not new and that what we are seeing is not really a new debate, but a new manifestation of old issues. The book has some interesting chapters on the culture of surfcasting, a portrait that is not always flattering. He talks about the nature of surfcasters and their cultural belief that they are getting the "short end" of the stick in more ways than one. In many respects, their attitudes that the fly boats are always in their way seems to be a manifestation of such attitudes. An except is below:

"And it is not only the seiners who are the targets of the surfcasters' apparently abundant wrath. When charter boats and private boats maneuver too close to Montauk's North Bar, searching for the same striped bass the surfcaster strains to reach from the rocky beach, their skippers must always be on the alert for a tin squid or a treble-hooked plug cast like a projectile toward the wheelhouse, or arched across the trolled lines so when it is retreived, the surfcaster's lure will tangle, or break, the boat's fishing lines."

Stonyflyer, as you are in apparent favor of getting the state involved, maybe you can tell us what was so bad that the fly charter boats did to you? Did they ever cut off your lure? Did you lose a fish when their lines tangled with yours?

I'll bet not.

It gets crowded at the Point and the boats really jam up with each other and move in close to shore. It is crazy sometimes and the boat captains can be downright rude. However, despite all this, I've always seen the boats stay on the far side of the blitz, even when they are moving close in to shore. Do you need 150 yards when the blitz is literally at your feet? While surfcasters always say that the flyboats have the whole ocean, I'll tell you that the bass blitzes are usually tight to the shore and despite crowds from the boats, the surfcasters almost always have the opportunity to catch more of these fish.

Sometimes I have the feeling that when surfcasters see a blitz subside or fail to move in towards the beach, they perceive that it must be the fault of the fly boats and absolutely couldn't be the tide, or because the bait dispersed or moved away from shore. It is in line with the "short end of the stick" culture described by John Cole.

I'll tell you that when surfcasting the Point (which I do numerous times each year), I've had many bad experiences with other surfcasters, but none with the fly boats. One only need look at one of my posts from last year talking about fishing a blitz in a crowd on the North side when one surcaster stood 6 feet behind me and cast directly over my head. Another person cast in front of a fish I had on, instantly tangling his lines. Cragganmor's and Sedotti's posts ring true.

Given these much more prevalant and obvious problems, I have a modest proposal. Perhaps the state should step in and regulate the number of casters on the North and South Sides of the Point. Maybe they should limit fishing to "slots" of one caster every one hundred feet. The state could solve some budget problems and help pay for the renovation of Camp Hero by charging $25 for a two hour session at a "slot".

cragganmor

10-09-2002, 11:13 PM

more than once i've witnessed surfcasters switching to a weighted treble or heavy casting sinker to try and "bounce" one off a boat, regardless of whether they were using fly, casting or spinning gear, clearly announcing their intentions to everyone within earshot. any boat in front of them was a bad boat.

seen enough drunken brawls on the rocks, casting over someones's back (as noted by fmv), cutting off another angler with a fish on, people keeping loads of shorts, trash, a group of buddies crowding a lone angler out of a spot. all bad stuff.

before they opened the road to turtle cove, i used to flyfish the rocks, especially when the anchovies were on the beach. used to get ugly comments by some surfcasters when i was catching fish and they weren't. would cast a small anchovy fly to a feeding fish 20' away and watch a googan toss a 2 oz. hopkins right in front of me. oy....

Stonyflyer

10-09-2002, 11:14 PM

That would be a bet that you would win FMW. I've never
had an incident with a fly guide at the point or anywhere
else. In fact there are several guides that I would consider
friends. However after this thread I doubt any would want
to own up to that fact. My fishing consists of flyfishing mostly
and I do cast a rare plug once in awhile at the point. It's
while being at the point this yr and last that things seem
to have gotten out of hand and yes the rec. boats are a
major player.
My comment about the state involvment was to make
a point not a recommendation. I've read most of Cole's
books and he has spent most of his time fishing from boats
so his view of surfcasters is not one without bias. If one
were to read the true classics such as those written by
Haig-Brown,Sparse Grey,Maclean and Lyons to name a few
you would not find a disparaging remark about other fisher-
men in their writings. We are all part of a brotherhood and
respect for one another should be encouraged. I believe
this is what Lefty always tried to impress on the many
people he instructed. My toes are beginning to feel warm
from the flames so I bid you adieu and wish you good fishing.

phillyflyguy

10-10-2002, 12:49 AM

Hey Everyone,

Thanks for all the replies.

Bige- my bad- I don't know you and wasn't sure you knew the area well. But I did suspect that this wasn't the same incident which is why i brought it up - it seems to happen with some frequency.

SageFlyGuy- I'm not going to say the guides name (yet at least). There were several other guides who witnessed the whole event and I suspect that some are in this forum. Why dont we ask them? I am not 100% sure that the b******* who berated us was a guide, but it seemed he had clients on board and at least two guides approached us immedeately afterwards and said "I see you met ..."

Later in the day we witnessed this 'professional' attempting to release a large blue while the fish dangled from a taught line draped half over the gunnel which it proceded to thrash itself against for 2 or 3 minutes- I doubt this 'released' fish lived, but hey I'm not a professional.

The Guide who made a fool of himself in front of his clients, by initiating and then refusing to drop an argument while supposedly working for them, is his own worst enemy. The real b******* in the incident was the guy who cut me off originally and remained silent the whole time.

teds- I agree that the vast majority of guides are professional etc. However I disagree with the implication that local guides 'own' monatuk's fishery anymore than out of towners.

dragonfly - I'm not sure what you mean when you claim I am 'exactly part of the issue'?? Yes, I know that the incident I was in was not a part of the Redbone - that was sorta my point.

Your example of a 'recreational' fisherman involved in an incident with surfcasters is different. I am speaking about professional guides (pretty sure). And as my partner told the guy 'for someone who is out on the water everyday you sure are tense' - in other words these guys should know better than the weekend warriors.

I agree that the fall is a crowded time.

Your claim that 'communication is key' seems to be contradicted by your later statement that you would 'hate to see us talk about each other in a negative way' I'm not speaking negatively, they acted negatively.

I also find it odd that the person saying essentially 'dont tell us who these guys were' is the first one to suggest bringing in state officials. How exactly do you propose self policing if noone can risk speaking negatively?

I never heard of your old saying, but how does it function differently from silent complicity? Am I wrong in thinking that you are telling me in a sideways way to tell you who the guides were in a private email and not in this public forum? Do you disagree that sageflyguys and teds idea of 'bad press' would be an effective way of communicating and resolving these issues?

Hey I'm all for the 'chatter' on the water, but it isn't the appropriate place to adress the greater issues - this forum is.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

In my few years fishing Montauk, I have seen acts of supreme idiocy - surfcaster pulling a knife on a rookie for running in front of his line ...

...and acts of rightous camaraderie - a brooklyn recreational boater reach across high seas to give us a few of his albie ties when the binsters were real fussy (thanks bro ! they worked!).

It's easy to say we want to be a part of the solution until someone cuts our fish off, puts our school down etc. (as if the fish are ever ours). It's not so easy to remember that when you have been insulted and wronged is the only time you can forgive. You cant 'turn the other cheek' unless you were slapped on the first.

One of the best parts about what we do is that we do it together - think about it...
See yall out there.

dragonfly

10-10-2002, 01:03 PM

I guess I was not all together clear as to what I was saying so let me try to clarify a few things.

Phillyflyguy- I wasn't trying to disparage you but I'm not sure it was clear that your incident was not part of the Redbone. Since this thread started out as a Redbone problem I thought I would point that out. It has become quite obvious this is not a Redbone problem, and yes I am a little sensitive about the Redbone. You guys should attend next years banquet and meet everyone it was a good time.
Getting back to my previous statements let me clarify:

On communication: I'm talking about on talking to each other on the water. I realize it won't solve every issue but keeping the line of communication open on the water will help.

I'm also trying to highlight to you guys that not all of the boats are Guides, for instance there are a couple of Maritime Skiffs, Parkers, and Seacrafts out there that look like guides but are not. If you believe it is guide I take you at your word after all I was not there.

I also worry that PFLGA who by the way does not have every guide in the association is getting lumped in with non-members. This is where I am speaking of dropping me a line and tell me who is acting in a non-professional manner and as board member I will relay your message, and if it is not a PFLGA member I'll let you know that also.

I don't agree nor disagree with sageflyguys and teds idea, but that type of thing can quickly take on a life all it's own. Maybe the use of a positive approach would work, talk about the guides you fellas find professional and courteous. I would advise caution on the negative approach

I also want nor said we should bring in the state that would not be good for all concerned. Under what pretense would you bring them in? Under safety? Well start climbing down those green rocks fellas that could end up backfiring and ultimately the boats could end up getting the better deal, there are commercial guys who work those areas as well as charter, the recreational fisherman would be the first group on the state radar screen.

I don't pretend to have the answers here I'm just trying to give everyone ideas and food for thought. Just because I have captains license doesn't mean I am the last word, that's for sure. So let me get off my soapbox and refrain from your forum and free thought.

Only The Best!!
Capt. Scott Holder
Dragon Fly Charters.

sage fly guy

10-10-2002, 08:42 PM

Capt. Scott,

You sound like a nice level headed Charter Guide, and if I ever got down that way I'd love to take a trip. Sometimes an ounce of sugar is better than a gallon of vinegar, I agree. But if a guide or anyone else told me when not to lift my line and cast I would calmly dive in, swim to his boat, and hold his head underwater till the bubbles stopped coming out. Ha, Ha, Ha

phillyflyguy

10-10-2002, 11:03 PM

Heh,

Sorry dragon- I see it was stony that suggested the state as a solution.

Thanks for the invite to Redbone, but we intentionally missed it this year cause of the yahoo factor and probably will do the same next year.

I never mentioned Pflga so it's not me lumping them in.

I'm still not clear on why you think it would be improper to mention names - you say you 'don't agree nor disagree' with the 'bad press idea'. Are you up for election or something ? :)

Holding people responsible for their actions isn't 'negative'. I didn't write the forum out of anger or a desire for revenge, but because it seemed here was an earnest attempt at solving some problems, maybe I was wrong.

I'm not sure how your technique of speaking positively about the good guides is going to help change the situation. Again, it seems you are advocating silent complicity and accepting the behaviour if it was from a Pro Guide.

Why don't we have some chatter and communication right here ? I repeat :

'There were several other guides who witnessed the whole event and I suspect that some are in this forum. Why dont we ask them?'

Open discussion is the only way to prevent any attempt at self regulation from becoming an entrenchment tool for bullies. Thats what this guy was and those advocating silence or remaining silent are either being bullied or are bullies of another sort.

I agree we should talk to each other out on the water (the bottom line is we are all part of a greater team). If the guy who originally cut me off had simply leaned over and said ' hey my bad' then the b******* reamin my partner out woulda realised what had happened. I was looking right at these guys incredulous that they weren't saying anything to calm everyone down.

My partner and I assumed that the reason these two boats never communicated was that they were both guides and they were puttin the squeeze play on the rental.

You seem to be confirming that this was probably the case...

fmw

10-11-2002, 09:37 AM

I think Dragonfly is rightfully concerned about wrongfully criticizing a particular guide's actions on this site. There was an incident involving a guide that was discussed a year or two ago . . . where individuals lambasted a guide for essentially invading their space, scaring the fish away and generally being rude. After much discussion, it appeared that the incident did not occur as initially stated. The guide (and his business) suffered obvious unwanted publicity.

Remember, guiding is what these folks do for a living and if you are going to be criticizing their business and character on a public forum, it is a slippery legal slope. You are hindering their ability to make a living. If what you are saying is not absolutely correct, you are opening yourself up to legal claims of defamation, etc.

mctrout

10-11-2002, 10:37 AM

Although I am no authority on Montauk, The Redbone, etc.. I thought I would wade in here just briefly as someone who has been out there in the middle of it allot this year. BTW I am NOT a member of the PFLGA and I did not participate in the Redbone, for many reasons (bottom line was I could not afford to take part this year, but am proud of the people who did since it was for a good cause) and for the first time up north here, a million fish didn't get killed in the process (CandR mortality not withstanding) Scott Holder deserves the lion share of the credit for this. He is not a personal friend of mine, but I have allot of respect for him for dedicating his time and effort.
Here is my silly little inconsequential take on this.

1. It is a Zoo out there, there are 50 boats and 100 shore guys on any given day, vying for the same 50x50 ft. patch of water.
2. Everyone have a sense of entitlement (EVERYONE, I said)
3. most feel somehow like a victim, or that they are getting screwed.
4. it is Very Exciting
5. EVERYONE has made a personal choice to be there (although the guides are the ONLY ones that may have made a different choice had they not been there to make a living. although they (we) choose to make our living there, doing that. so.....
6. There is no room in fishing (or anything to do with the ocean) for EGO, you CHOOSE to have one, you will end up ****ed off, and as a nice side bonus, Mother Nature will make you pay for such a lack of humility in her playgroud
7. The seven Deadly sins are called Deadly for a reason. you decide which ones apply here (I say all of them) Greed, Lust, Anger, Pride, Envy, Gluttony and Sloth. pretty sad.
8. People, when pushed can be selfish, petty, oafish, egotistical and worst of all dangerous. whether it is throwing a 9-hooked chunk of wood at someone's head, or throwing someone out of their boat with your boat's wake.
9. I love it out there and am guilty of all of the above and then some...sorry
10. If 3 people call you a horse, you had better get a saddle. I have never had anyone yell at me and I have never yelled at anyone else out there. sure I get upset when a guide motors up on a school and then holds on it even when both his clients are into fish. I would like to get around them so my sports get a shot. what are ya gonna do? get in a fight? show them you are angry? this is fishing for christ's sake, if it isn't fun-I don't want to do it. I make more money at my other job.
11. Graciousness is a learned emotion, and most people missed that day of class, that does not give me the right to stoop to their level. Progress not perfection.
12. Mother Nature-First Clients-Second Others/Myself-Third
please refer to #7

If you want to know how it is done watch the Masters like Paul Dixon or David Blinken.(I am sure there are the surf-side equivalents, i just don't know them). these are the people that have been at it the longest, are the most successful and thus the busiest.

Anyway, That was more then enough- the world and especially Montauk gives us all an oppurtunity to be an ******* just about every 5 minutes, that is the challenge of the human condition... how did you do today?

Humbly (I hope)
Capt. Brendan McCarthy
Urban Fly-Guides