To troll or not to troll......

[ruge13]

A previous thread mentioned kayaks are trolling instruments....this got me thinking...

Before I ask this question, I am not being sarcastic or trying to start a fight. I am seriously curious because trolling is a technique I don't usually use with a fly rod unless I am straightening twisted line. Whats the big deal with trolling?? What makes this your primary attack? Is it that you can cover alot of water? Is it a casting problem with larger flies (even though I know some people prefer to troll small flies)? I am interested in everyones comments...
My limited experience with trolling is more of a higher speed dragging as an alternaive to collecting line when moving from place to place. With the spin rod I will troll swimmers hear and there to find fish but thats about it. I have more fun casting or drifting. And I think I can cover just as much water. I like to use the kayak to poke around and cast to different areas. I like to do this with as little disturbance to the water by paddling as litttle as possible when fishing. I feel like I couldn't do that trolling. Of course having said that, anyone who has ever seen me fishing knows I am clumsy and bang around alot. Regardles, I like to feel the take. I have trouble doing that while trolling as well. Anyway, do alot of people troll? Why? What do you like about it?

[Brianf27]

I have had limited success trolling. Flies or conventional. It is something I want to improve on to include in my arsenal. I see Joe's pictures and that proves to me it is something look into. I do prefer drifting and casting, or better yet finding fish where I can disembark and stand on earth and cast. Two methods of trolling I would like to try are tube and worm and live or rigged eels. I tried a small tube and worm twice last year. I think I caught almost every species that lives in Narr. Bay except for a striper. Fluke, blues, skates, sea robins, choggies...

[Bob Parsons]

If I've read Joe's post correct, He is often trolling in relatively shallow water (12') around stucture. (rocks) The yak is excellent for this, the risk is much great to troll a boat with prop hanging below in such an area.

I will troll in deep water or on flooded sandbars where I'm not concerned about hitting something. In a boat trolling 12' of water you have to let out a lot of line to get away from the area disturbed by the boat. Stripers tend to shift to the side, blues tend to bolt farther off.

I find trolling very effective, I just don't do it often since I also find it boring. At least trolling in a yak your busy paddling.
Key aspects of trolling are speed and depth.
tube and worm should be just off the bottom and slow.

[joev]

Sean I to like casting and feeling the hit.But trolling is a very effective way to cover lots of water.Also you can keep your lure in the strike zone for a long time.Most of my spots have a good current and some rip lines are long .Fish maybe holding along that edge.With the yak I can present mylure back to the fish and work that along that edge just by paddling the same speed as the current and adjusting my rudder.That way my lure stays in the zone longer.I do this alot.Sometimes I also will just slow down to let the lure drop into holes .Once you figure out where and what depth you can really get into them .I think it increase your lures time in the strike zone longer wich should increase your hookups.Not to mention that the yak really moves once you stop paddling via wind or current you can really get out of the zone rather quickly.Its just another way to catch fish.I like paddling around and it gives me a little workout.

Not spooking the fish requires a quiet stroke.I try to concentrate on this in skinny water.However I believe I have caught many bass that I saw right next to the yak .When you paddle 60 more feet and bang them.Its happened alot.So I dont think it spooks them as much as you think.

As most of you know trolling the Tube was quite effective for me this year.But I also had some good trips trolling shad bodies in 15 ft of water using trolling weights to get down.

JoeV

[rockfisherman]

Originally posted by ruge13
Whats the big deal with trolling?? What makes this your primary attack? Is it that you can cover alot of water? Is it a casting problem with larger flies (even though I know some people prefer to troll small flies

The big deal with trolling is that it is very effective. There is a long history of trolling streamer flies in Maine, and for good reason. You CAN cover a lot of water. You can fish deep, and keep the fly in the strike zone all the time, which you can't do with cast and retrieve. With big flies, you can make one short cast, work out a bunch of line, and fish for a while without wearing yourself out casting the thing. Small flies work, too.

Originally posted by ruge13
What do you like about it?

I like to catch fish ;) But seriously, I would rather cast and retrieve, fish high in the water with a floating line and feel the strike come to my hand if possible.

[bunker]

It all comes down to personal preference. I prefer to cast a fly rather than troll. Having said that I will troll when I'm prospecting for fish. As mentioned before it covers a lot of area quickly. Mostly though I troll when either I'm heading in,I'm returning to the start of my drift or I'm bored and feel the need to excercise.
I've caught a lot of fish doing this and in areas where I once thought were devoid of fish. Either way as long as I'm enjoying myself.
Might be seeing ya at Marlboro.

Mike D.

[ChemFly]

Rock and Others,
I've been fly fishing for a LONG time, and plan on putting a kayak into the arsenal very shortly. Thus, when Rockfisherman brought up the comparison to trolling ala Maine-style streamer fishing, he beat me to the point. My experience in trolling flies in Norway have taught me a few valuable lessons that I hope to bring to my kayak applications: Covering ground in a methodical manner with minimal disturbance. Naturally the ability to handle a kayak well will have abit to do with this, but learning is part of the fun/game.

Regarding trolling flies, has anyone trolled tandem hook-style flies such as those used in freshwater trolling situations? Also, has anyone found a particular line grade (intermediate, deep express, etc.) to perform better then others? It's a wide question but I'm confident that your experience will guide me.

Thanks in advance.

[bluewatr]

I agree 100% with Paul. Trolling can be extremely effective way of fly-fishing. In Ct around the mouth of the CT River I have had great luck trolling deep. The only issue is if your fly gets fowled with weed you might not know it. I check it periodically. For me it depends on what type of structure is around..... I like to mix it up (trolling and casting). I also agree with JoeV that paddling does not spook them as much as a lot of people may think.

I do prefer to cast and drift. I would never even think of trolling if I am targeting tunoids.....

-mike

[joev]

This what I was gonna do.Got this from a few other yak fly guys .I was going to use different lengths of lead core line with a loop set up.Longer lead core the deeper it will run.I plan on having a depth finder this year so I want to make sure I can get down to fish when they are holding there.Even in a heavy current.
A few guys have said they use this set up and it woks well.It sounds good to me.Thats kinda why I was going with a bigger rod also.

JoeV

[FishHawk]

A friend \of mine gets most of his fish trolling in his yak. I have tried it without much success. However, I'm still trying to work out the bugs . There is a lot to do in the yak and fish at the same time. I use the yak mainly for transportation. FishHawk

[RIBill]

I agree with all of the above...

Trolling can be deadly. R'man mentions Maine; trolling with a fly is so effective that it's prohibited in Maine's trout ponds.

Many a flyfishing purist will tell you that trolling is not "really" flyfishing. Their point, I guess, is that you must deliver the fly to the fish via a cast... in other words you have to use the rod for more than just fighting the fish. I don't let such technical niceties stop me from doing it. It works well, and I like to catch fish.

I agree that, in trolling, you are deprived of the feel of the take at your hands (unless you're holding the rod). At times, I've gotten sick of trolling for the lack of that direct take. At those moments I tend to agree with the purists that there is no fish like the fish that is taken on a casted fly, well-presented and retrieved. On the other hand, every type of fishing has its charm. With trolling, it the magic of seeing or hearing the rod spring to life. Its the excitement of bringing the line fast to the fish before the fish is gone; they don't always hook themselves well.

I've also had situations where fish will not touch a retrieved fly but will jump all over it as soon as you start dragging it behind you. I'm not sure why.

A couple of my trolling memories from the recent past:

- taking an albie in December in Jordans's Cove while trolling an R'man squid fly on the way back to the Pleasure Beach ramp;

- taking 4 weaks in 45 minutes in Greenwich Bay trolling a 3" jointed rebel (couldn't get em to take a fly but I plan to try an articulated pattern this spring); and

- taking stripers in the dog days/nites of summer by paddling in the darkness off Jamestown, trolling a pair of black deceivers. This became my go-to approach for July and August and it proved very reliable. I can't wait to do it again. The profile of the pair of deceivers against the night sky proved irresistable, and the troll kept them in the strike zone continuously.

The danger in my mind, is that it's so easy to get into a trolling habit from your kayak that you can get lazy about working the water thoughtfully and thoroughly. Everything in moderation, I guess. If you're not careful, your friends may refer to you as "The Troll". ;)

[ruge13]

I will have Albies in December, 4 weakfish, and 1 long nose please Jepetto...:p

[notime]

I do much of my fishing trolling with the kayak. I find trolling out of a boat very boring, but love it out of the kayak. I enjoy the paddling and exploring aspect. I generally find blind casting out of a kayak to be boring. To each his own.

[ChemFly]

I'm sure that this question has been asked before, so please be patient. What type of rod holders do you use on your kayaks to ensure proper rod balance, angle and safety? Do you have a safety clip /ring mounted on the rod to ensure that you do not have the rod pulled from the rod holder/rigger? Examples would be great.

Thanks
:-%

[bluewatr]

Chemflyfish,

I use a Scotty fly-rod holder system. Most kayak shops have them. Collinsville Canoe and Kayak in Collinsville CT stocks them ($35.00). I am sure you can buy online for cheaper. It pivots in all directions so you can set the angle of the rod to your likings..Yes there is a "lock in" system built into the rod holder.

When mounting rod holder on Kayak take your time and make sure you position it where it will be out of your paddle-stroke but easily accessible. Especially if you choose to use it when trolling. I had to mount mine behind me due to the disign of my sit-on-top..... If you can, mount it in front of you....

When I troll I put the fly-rod between my legs. That way I can feel the strike right when it happens.. Also I found that it can be difficult to remove the rod from the holder with a fish on.
You must also make sure you lock the reel in under your thigh so that the rod doesn’t get yanked into the water if you get a heavy strike.
Yes I would also definitely tether the rod. I use a 1/4" fine braided rope (has NO memory) with a slip knot to the butt of the rod just below the reel mount. If rigged properly you won't even know it's there and it won't interfere with casting in the least.

[RIBill]

Scotty is the way to go. I think that you can get them with a West Marine or Cabelas label for $25.

As Bluewtr indicated they are great and angles are nearly infinite. But I agree that the flyrod will end up propped between your legs. I've got scottys front and back, and yet I sometimes troll with a combination of rods and they both end up propped between my legs. As mentioned earlier, you WILL lose fish on a "dead stick", a quick rod grab is often necessary and you'll still miss some. The rodholders are still used, however, and make for worry-free storage when you are boogeying with the paddle.

I don't, and won't, use any kind of rod leash, but I know that I'm asking for some heartbreak as someday I'll watch a rod slowly sink into the depths...

and as for you, Ruge13 :p .... I'll see you in Rhody and we'll fish for weaks when the rhodies are in bloom... :D

[ChemFly]

Bluwtr & RIB,
Thanks for the tips. Greatly appricated.
The Scotty model is very familiar, much like the custom rod holders that I see on European boats. When trolling with a fly in Norway the rod is always held when rowing or drifting, but there are plenty of people who do use rod holders as well. Tethers sound like good insurance against heavy strikes, but having one more line to content with will require a fifth hand... oh well, we'll figure it out.

I'm leaning towards a tandem Loon or a tandem Walden. Still not final.

cheers
:-%

[RIBill]

CFF: It's become a bit of a cliche amongst New England kayak anglers, but consider also the Wilderness Systems Pungo. It now comes in 3 different lengths. It is time tested and has proven to be a great fishing platform. It's stable as all get-out, has a nice big cockpit for easy in & out, but is admittedly slower than a kayak of greater length (not a significant limitation imho). Good Luck.

[ruge13]

I use the scotty. I got it at West marine for $24 on sale. I love it. I just noticed that amongst my pictures I have relatively few with a fly rod but it works just as well. I didn;t use a teather last year and almost lost both my spin rod and fly rod over the side. You would think I would have learned my lesson. The only part I do not like about them is the rubber tie down used to keep the rod in place over the end. The eyes tend to slip off the knobs when only one side is fastened. I have alost lost it a few times. Now I usually just leave both ends on under the bottom. Hard to explain but when you see it you know what I am talking about. Still a great system. Mine is easy to reach and rarely gets in the way even on the deck in front.

[ChemFly]

Ruge,
Nice rig. Who is the maker?
Thanks to all for the input (sic).
I read the FAQ on the main kayak forum page and realize that there are as many opinions on boat styles as there are fly designs. I see Paulyfish's point of view...

I'll be doing the majority of my kayaking in Raritan Bay, Shrewsbury River system, IBSP and Mullica River systems, thus fairly flat water is going to be the norm outside of the windy Raritan. I see lots of Pungos out there.


:-%

[ruge13]

Its a Perception Corona. Great kayak, not a recomended fishing boat (lateral stability). Scotty rod holder. The bag is just a Fanny pack made into a deck bag.

[Wes]

Rod leash-
What I use is a small s/s split ring fastened around the bottom of the seat with a nylon cable tie. You don't know it's there if you take the leash off. Leash is made up from a piece of coiled phone cord with a brass snap on one end and a 80-100# snap, such as a duo-lock snap, on the other end. The coiled cord does a decent job keeping itself out of the way.

I usually leash rods and maybe tools. Keep in mind when you have tethered a couple rods, pliers, boga and/or other assorted stuff you some risk entanglement. Think of the image of Ahab on the back of the whale.

[RJ]

Chemflyfish,

If your going the tandem route check out the Wilderness System Palmico! I've got one for sale becasue I bought a Pungo angler and haven't pulled the Palmico out of the boat house since. I used the tandem for one full season and my son bought me the Pungo. RIBill is correct, it is a stable and tough boat. Covers a fair amouth of water with a reasonable expenditure of effort.

The Palmico is a great one man paddle when you adjust the seat configeration. It is stable and efficient too! Lots of room for extra gear, cooler, live bait bucket, decoys, etc.

I did a lot of duckhunting and fishing in the Shrewsbury and Navasink raising my family in Atlantic Highlands. Great gunnng and surperb fishing! The traffic finally drove me out. My wife wanted to live some place that wasn't off and Exit!

I still go back and fish the Highlands!

If your interested after you checkthe Palmico out on the web, e-mail me and we will dicker on the purchace price. We'll start slightly above half price and work our way south. It has a factory installed rudder system that is sweet.

duckboat@capital.net

Prost! :-%

[joev]

I dont use rod tethers and I too will be watching a rod slowly sink.I do tether my lip gripper so I can let the fish back into the water if I am taking pics.Camera case floats but gets bungeed to the center colum of my Tarpon.Pliers are kept in a sheath attched to the camera bungee.Only dropped my pliers once in 2 ft of water thankfully.I dont like alot of lines criss crossing when batlling wind waves and fish.
Whenever I take out a newbie I have every thing tethered to their yak.1 rod ,pliers and a lip gripper.

JoeV

[ChemFly]

JoeV & RJ,
Thank you for the offers and tips.
I plan on testing a few different boats in March/April, once the ice starts to break... I've rowed in some pretty nasty s@*t over the years, so a late march kayak test won't offend me.
I'll keep you posted.

Cheers
:-%

[JonS]

My preferred rod holder is the RAM system. The Scotty does an good job but comparing a RAM to a Scotty is like calling a Hummer an SUV. The RAM system is far superior and makes difficult mounting situations easier. RAMs cost a bit more but they are much better. True versatility and 360 degrees of rotation.

As to trolling I do a lot of it from a kayak. Where ever you go in a kayak you're always at trolling speed. So not having a line in the water means catching fewer fish. OFten trolling produces casting and if you use a tube 'n worm there isn't any comparison.

[gm]

Likewise on the RAM systems...I've modified my RAM tubes w/a flyrod holder that I made from brass stock(silver soldered together) and tapped the aluminum RAM tube,secured it to the side of the tube w/stainless screws.Works like a Bluewater designs flyrod tube...w/a velcro strap.Sturdy enough for trolling.

[JonS]

I have found that the RAM Rod works great for a fly rod as long as it has a fighting butt.

[ruge13]

Chemfly - You mentioned you were fishing out of a Walden or Loon right? Do they make Ram systems for Sit ins? I agree with the fighting but though, the scotty I have would be useless without the but.

[Wes]

Shawn, Ram has tube holders (rocker launchers) and a style similar to Scotty. You can put a base almost anywhere you want, you just want a small relatively flat area. The base has a ball on it that and it stays if you remove the rod holder. I use Titelok holders because the base is a flat plate maybe a 1/4 inch high but the RAM system is better, more flexibility. I didn't want something I might catch myself or gear on the deck right behind the cockpit during re-entry. I'm not so sure in hindsight that it would make any difference (none if you have rod holder installed at the time) but it's something to consider. I bought 2 rod holders and 5 bases for 2 yaks and switch them around.

[ChemFly]

Shaun,
No, I'm not fishing out of any kayak as of yet. Still shopping for a suitable rig. However, I have given the Loon and Waldens heavy consideration. I've corresponded with a few other yak fisherman on this site and most are SOT-types. Thus I need to do more homework- many to choose from...
:confused:

[JonS]

Shaun, definately do your homework. You'll find that a SOT will let you do more fishing in more environments which will mean more fish. Most guys who have owned both want SOts for fishing.

[ruge13]

Oooohh Boy, me in a SOT? Imagine that one.....There was alot of ice on the ocean in front of Winthrop this morning but none of it came from H**L!

[bluewatr]

Shaun,

I cant picture you in a SOT either... :) Or Sam for that matter.. :)
I envied you and Sam that day you guys took off for the light house at Pine Island.... I could never attempt that in my SOT (unless the water was extremely flat)... On the contrary of what many have said lately regarding SOT's and sit-ins... I definately want to pick up a sit-in... I will be able to cover more water and being shut down would not happen so much... Calm days for the SOT and the sit-in for the rougher stuff....

Last year I made a few trips to the shore to yak fish and had to make a quick change in plans because the water had to much chop for the SOT... If I had a sit-in I would have been good to go....


-mike

[joev]

Mike I dont think it matters at all.Just your yak might not be the best SOT for the ruff stuff.I have been out a few times with the Tarpon in some pretty ruff stuff.JimW(WES) and I were out in 2-3 catching 10-15 pd blues it was a little hairy but rode it out with no problems.I had a Pungo and wont go back to to a SINK.Unless you can eskimo roll your SINK with rods on there is no advantage.
Jim also had his yak out with his sons in some pretty big water in Maine this year.His nuts are much bigger than mine :D
JoeV

[bluewatr]

JoeV,

I hear ya bro....
You bet I will be taking Steve's Tarpon for a few test drives this Spring.... :)
And I have to admit :(
My SOT is definately NOT the best choice for the ruff stuff.....

How did you make out with that fly rig?

-mike

[SamRiley]

Originally posted by joev
His nuts are much bigger than mine :D

Actually Joe, on this forum we call em Aggies :) And besides... if you are landing Cows at night in a yak you got nothin to prove to nobody.

Maybe the belongs on the other thread Joe but for you, what makes a good rough water SOT? Is it more than width?

[joev]

Sam Dont know exactly must be a width thing with hull design thrown in. But I do know Bluewaters yak is a twin hull setup.He told me it was hairy in the ruff stuff.I think it should be ok(Works on bigger boats) but I never paddled it.I know my Tarpon works very well for me.It does pound a bit on the re entry into the wave.Wich makes me wonder about the new 120 its even more blunt in the front .My Pungo was really rock solid even broadside to the waves.I think most of it is the guy who is paddling and his experience level.The more time you have in the slop the easy it gets to handle it.

JoeV

[rockfisherman]

Joe,

Mike's got a Tarpon. I'm puzzled about the difference in your and Mike's evaluations of the yak...but I guess it all comes down to the perception of stability. My Perception (pun intended) kayak seems more stable to me than my Pungo, but the Pungo is the one I end up in all the time now.

http://www.reel-time.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=29178

[Wes]

Looks to me like Mike has a Ride in that picture (and a nice FA). The Ride has a completely different hull than the Tarpon. I think it has more of a twin hull as Joev said, max initial stability but I think it probably takes a lickin' in rough water. People say they stand in those.

Where's Mike?

[rockfisherman]

Wes,

I believe you are right...I think it was a Ride. I am certain it is one of the Wilderness Systems yaks. That explains the difference in reviews...thanks.

[bluewatr]

Hey guys.... I'm here... Just been lying a bit low...

Wes is correct my yak is a Ride.... I am approaching my 3rd season doing the yak fishing thing and yes my experience is still young... So that should be factored into the equasion.

I do think however that the Ride is not the most versatile setup. It is good for the back waters and like Wes said you can stand in them in the right conditions. It can be flippy tho.... It also pounds alot...

-mike