Kayak kit advice needed

[David Churbuck]

A recent walk down Coast Guard Beach with the family got me wondering about how cool it would be to kayak fish the back waters of the Nauset Marsh. I had stopped at the Hyannis EMS on the way to Eastham to exchange an Xmas gift and found myself checking out the kayaks on sale. Nice craft, but I know nothing about what is preferred for fly fishing.

Then today, sitting at home on a snowy afternoon, I thought how great it would be to have a winter project.

Like building a kayak.

Talk me out of this if it is a bad idea. I found what look to be some good kits out of Canada for essentially the same price as a decent kayak. The only thing is I have no idea if these kits will translate into a good fishing boat. I would use it for some gunkholing around the backwaters of the South Cape, but would car top it to the marshes and places I really don't want to launch my center console.

I was drawn to http://www.royfolland.com/models.htm There's a version for big people, like me, rated at up to 250 pounds.

I have a good place to build, am experienced with wooden boat construction, have plenty of tools, and know how to work with marine epoxies such as the WEST system.

It would be cool to wind up with a gorgeous wooden hull.

Thanks in advance

dc

[ruge13]

I'm jealous! Definately check out :
http://www.clcboats.com/

CLC has some sweet looking boats that perform really really well. From what I hear (guy I work with built 2) they are easy to build and allow for great creativity. they are also easy to repair if scratched or damaged. I went to a demo day last fall and fell in love with the Chesapeakes.

If you just plan to stay in Nauset march, the Mill Creek has a larger cockpit, better for fly fishing I would imagine, but not necesary. They would fit you and come in a 16ft size.

However, since you scull, I am sure it won't be long before you start eyeing the gannets and gulls diving outside the cut and would apreciate a better performing craft than the shorter wider Mill creek. Or will be paddling in rougher water and may want the skirt to get past the breakers and fish the ocean side. In that case, go with the Chesapeake 17 or 18. They are light for their size and have unbelievable performance.
With the hard chines on the 17, it performs like a racing boat with the comfort of a recreational, you can turn on edge by leaning and bracing. It's a real fast boat. If you are staying inside marshes who cares about speed or performance, but Nauset is a big place, and has big currents. Faster boats don't fight the current as much and will allow you to chase the terns diving in the cuts against the current with less effort.

You will also want a rudder rather than the skeg they come with, with the currents marshes typically have, but that can be added later.

The one's you are looking at look similar. You may want the larger cockpit space for fly fishing, but definately not needed. I have about 1 1/2 feet of clearence in front of me (18" cockpit width) and its enough room to not bother me, but I wouldn't mind more space. If I went to more space, I would need a wider boat and would rather not do that. Occaisionally my line, if I don't pay attention, gets caught under my leg and will foul a cast, but I have learned to compensate for that.

Keep in mind, if you are decent with wood working as you said you are, increasing the cockpit size might not be hard. In the opening, width doesn't matter, its length.

Search the web for CLC boats or check out their photos. There are some incredible hull designs out there. One at the demo I went to has all gold leaf trip inscribed trim and a mohagany striped deck. Trophy pieces I would be afraid to let touch the water.

I know there are a couple guys here that built their's...Wes comes to mind. If he doesn't reply, I would try to send him an email. He might eb able to help you.

[mansfieldsign]

Hi David,
Before I built our boat, I had investigated the CLC, Chesapeake Models, Shaun mentioned. They would have been my selection for exactly what he said. I do subscribe to Wooden Boat Magazine and have noticed that the CLC models are mentioned more frequently by readers who have built and successfully launched their own boats. They seem to have good tech support as well as all the extra hardware and kayak accessories to fit the needs of the builder.
Most companies CNC fabricate the kits for strip building now anyway.
I think, that building is a great way to go and the thrill of being on the water
in a craft you made is beyond discription, but my only piece of advice to you is no matter what craft you select, do not to put a time limit on completion. Take your time and enjoy the experience. Also, check out both System 3 and MAS epoxies, both companies have great free technical books available.
Good Luck -- Phil

[David Churbuck]

Hmm, two back-to-back recommendations for the CLCs. I ran into those after submitting my first post and they do indeed look pretty slick and the prices aren't off the wall. The weight doesn't seem to be that far off that of a manufactured hull, a little heavier, but not too bad.

Shaun, you're right about my inevitably wanting to do something more active than paddling around in still waters. I was looking at the CLC Pax racing models and had to remind myself that it's fishing, not drag racing that I want to do.

So, it sounds as if a hard chine is the way to go and to not get too beamy in the process.

I'll do some more research and report back on my decision to go or not go.

Phil, about how many hours did you put into your boat?

thanks for the advice

[mansfieldsign]

Hi Dave,
When I started our boat I was told by the designer that with some woodworking experience, which I have, approximately 80 hrs. I think, Folland states 60 hrs per kit. It actually took me, with due diligence, 600 hrs. I also had to procure and mill some suitable lumber so I’m not saying your time will increase so dramatically, but it is very reasonable to expect a much greater time investment than you originally thought. Now let me explain why. With your experience, building the craft will be straight forward for you, however, the time really increases once the structure and hull is formed, even if you don’t modify the original design. I chose to pot my epoxy in smaller batches, this extended working time and reduced waste, but added more time to each step. Prepping, fitting, seal coats, and sanding, external/internal structural fillets, the glass sheathing, then all the epoxy fill coats, more fairing and sanding took a lot longer than I had anticipated. As you know, the fore mentioned steps need to be done correctly. I didn’t want to invest valuable time and money just to end up with something that looked amateurish or just not seaworthy. Plus, once you start, I really don’t think unfinished kit boats have a big resale market so it’s yours.
Take the extra protective steps in the build process to help maintain and protect the finished boat. Things such as double sheathing along wear points on the hull and chines. Making floatation bulk heads etc., water tight.
Was it worth it ? YES. Would I do it again ? YES, but you've got to be in the mood and not pressured to get in it the water.
I’m NOT an expert by any means, but if you have a question don’t hesitate to ask.

[Wes]

There are a number of good stitch and glue kayak kits available. Waters Dancing, Pygmy, One Ocean, Shearwater, Guillermot are a few more places to check. I have found hard chined boats a little twitchy for fishing, just my opinion, but you cna certainly fish them. I'd consider multi chined S/G or softer chined like most strip boats. The quality of a bright finished S/G is also subject to whatever pieces come out of the box and they may not be matched well. Chris Kulczycki has written a couple books on the process ( ie The New Kaytak Shop) Kits do seem the way to go for S/G if you want to cut down on the hours building.
If you can spend a few more hours building you might like to consider cedar strip construction. There are a lot of plans available and several books that describe the process and contain free plans. Since the strips are just part of a cored fiberglass panel in the end you can do some pretty amazing stuff cutting and fitting with different woods, a work of art if you want.

Check this link for a lot of info
kayak building forum (http://www.kayakforum.com/index.shtml)

[David Churbuck]

Wes,

I am very interested in strip construction. In September I raced against a double scull built by a teacher at Tabor Academy that was, hands down, the most gorgeous small boat I have ever seen. I have no experience in that type of construction, but your point about possible grain mismatches ruining my dream of a bright finish is correct -- however I don't know if I want to invest the time to rip my own Okume to get the perfect match.

I also am leery of hardchined, having heard over and over from the plastic yakkers that a round chine presents a better casting platform. I am big -- 6' 4", 240 lbs. -- and am very conscious of the what my bulk can do to a small boat after spending close to 300 days a year trying to balance a single shell with two long oars.

I'll check out the Kulczycki book and do a lot more research. Committing $700 for a kit, and then conservatively investing another $300 for paddle, skirt, seat, and other accessories makes me want to do this project right the first time.

Thanks for giving me pause to do some more research.
dc
There are a number of good stitch and glue kayak kits available. Waters Dancing, Pygmy, One Ocean, Shearwater, Guillermot are a few more places to check. I have found hard chined boats a little twitchy for fishing, just my opinion, but you cna certainly fish them. I'd consider multi chined S/G or softer chined like most strip boats. The quality of a bright finished S/G is also subject to whatever pieces come out of the box and they may not be matched well. Chris Kulczycki has written a couple books on the process ( ie The New Kaytak Shop) Kits do seem the way to go for S/G if you want to cut down on the hours building.
If you can spend a few more hours building you might like to consider cedar strip construction. There are a lot of plans available and several books that describe the process and contain free plans. Since the strips are just part of a cored fiberglass panel in the end you can do some pretty amazing stuff cutting and fitting with different woods, a work of art if you want.

Check this link for a lot of info
kayak building forum (http://www.kayakforum.com/index.shtml)

[ruge13]

I agree. The hard chines are a high performance boat but not ideal by any means for fishing. The Chesapeakes I tried were very fluid I thought. Was very responsive to bracing and corrected mistakes rather than amplifying them like a typical hard chine boat. Much less "twitchy" than my current round hull. But it was also almost 6" wider. Multi chined is definately the way to go. I believe CLC will send you altered kits and plans for different hull shapes, at least I think I remember that from the sales rep at the demo.

The cedar strip boats are just bout the most beatifully crafted boats I have ever seen. There are usually a few sitting around the Goose any given weekend in the summer if you want to go drool.
I tried the Pax boats at the demo. Tried an 18" and a 20" They are Amazingngly fast!! If I hear of another Demo I will let you know. I watched another guy who competively raced them effortlessly paddle against a 15 knt wind in heavy chop like he was tailing the current mid tide out of woods hole. They also have shell kits you can build.


As far as beemy, I wouldn't worry as much about that as you would in a plastic boat. I wouldn't go to 30" or anything like that, but the extra 6" or so won't hurt I don't think. Then again I have never actually built one, just tested ones that were built. Plastic boats flex, wider, longer, the more the flex in the hull and the more energy absorbed in the hull from the paddle stroke. With a glassed boat, the flexible hull is eliminated, so even though the boat may be 6" wider, the flexing hull does not absorb any energy from the paddle stroke and feels faster than a slightly smaller profiled plastic boat. I think you can feel this in the newer plastic boats. Some have reinforced hulls like Current designs. Compare that to a similar model and dimention and hull shape from say Perception, and you can feel the difference. The Current designs newer boats feel faster. I could not believe the difference between my tupperware vs the glassed boat. Felt like the hull was greased. No drag. Man I loved those boats, I am jealous. None of this has anything to do with fishing, I am just daydreaming out loud about them.

[David Churbuck]

I ordered two books on strip construction from Amazon. I think that's the way I'm leaning -- especially if I want to graduate to a really competitive racing shell (I'd love a Graeme King but can't afford one of his shells by any means).

Performance is not going to be an issue because I expect I'll really focus my time in the yak on backwater fishing. I don't spend enough time up "high" inside of the great marshes and estuaries here on the Cape, so fishability is paramount. If I want to go fast I'll launch my Empacher and crank around Grand Island in under 40 minutes.

Thanks for all the advice. I think I have the shop space to pull this off. My problem is that it is unheated (it's also the boatshop my grandfather used when he built wooden boats for living, but we took the old woodstove our years ago) and that means problems when I start gluing and epoxying.

That's a future problem. Now I'll just study, ask questions, and see if the budget can tolerate the project.
Here's what I ordered:
"The Strip-Built Sea Kayak: Three Rugged, Beautiful Boats You Can Build"
Nick Schade;Paperback; $13.97

1"The New Kayak Shop: More Elegant Wooden Kayaks Anyone Can Build"
Chris Kulczycki;Paperback; $15.37


dc

I agree. The hard chines are a high performance boat but not ideal by any means for fishing. The Chesapeakes I tried were very fluid I thought. Was very responsive to bracing and corrected mistakes rather than amplifying them like a typical hard chine boat. Much less "twitchy" than my current round hull. But it was also almost 6" wider. Multi chined is definately the way to go. I believe CLC will send you altered kits and plans for different hull shapes, at least I think I remember that from the sales rep at the demo.

The cedar strip boats are just bout the most beatifully crafted boats I have ever seen. There are usually a few sitting around the Goose any given weekend in the summer if you want to go drool.
I tried the Pax boats at the demo. Tried an 18" and a 20" They are Amazingngly fast!! If I hear of another Demo I will let you know. I watched another guy who competively raced them effortlessly paddle against a 15 knt wind in heavy chop like he was tailing the current mid tide out of woods hole. They also have shell kits you can build.

[Wes]

Both of those books are excellent and both contain plans for some nice boats.

Would be good to paddle a few if you can before you build. There has been a gathering of builders at Bluff Pt, CT in June the last couple years where you could try a few and another in NH in the fall I think. Check that building forum I posted for details if interested. There are some really good paddlers at these events as well, worth a day.

[David Churbuck]

Thanks. I wish I could paddle a few, but as I have NO yak experience whatsoever, I don't think I would know a good boat if it was given to me.

This is a fun project to research, at the very least. I am very impressed by the One Ocean Cape Ann design
http://www.oneoceankayaks.com/Kayaks.htm#expedanch

The Guillemot Expedition is nice too, but I may need, due to my size, go for the Expanded Great Auk.
http://www.guillemot-kayaks.com/Building/Guillemot/ExpSing/index.html

Any and all design suggestions are most welcome. Remember - I am 6'4", now weigh 240, but working out to lose 20, so my paddling weight will be 220. No interest in touring or camping, just puttering around in backwaters, and fishing estuaries, lakes, etc. I'm comfortable in small boats, so initial balance and tenderness won't be an issue. I don't want to chafing for a faster design after a season or so.

I'm pretty committed to the strip method. I have three friends with millshops, so my plan is to build in red cedar, Atlantic white, and whatever materials (ask, lace wood) makes sense.

I have no ambitions to do any fancy deck art. Just want to build a rugged but beautiful boat that I won't cringe when the teenagers take it out.

dc

Both of those books are excellent and both contain plans for some nice boats.

Would be good to paddle a few if you can before you build. There has been a gathering of builders at Bluff Pt, CT in June the last couple years where you could try a few and another in NH in the fall I think. Check that building forum I posted for details if interested. There are some really good paddlers at these events as well, worth a day.

[PeteV]

I know this probably wasn't what you were thinking but the strip construction Kayak kits seem pretty expensive. have you considered buying some decent Lumber and running the strips through a router yourself (rounded on one side & a reverse round groove on the other)...you can get some very nice wood, match the grains so you can get a very nice looking hull. If you don't feel confident then pick up some el-cheapo stuff and experiment with a quick canoe for messing around. with a nice sander you can make a very nice smooth hull in just about any shape.

you mentioned the CLC kits ..this one caught my eye a while ago.
http://www.clcboats.com/boats/wherry.php/cart_id=74ebcbe92c99600be4e685ee9c7f341b/

[SamRiley]

just puttering around in backwaters, and fishing estuaries, lakes, etc.

Wait till you see Albies breaking just offf the Poppy Flats and then see how you feel :)

What do you think of the skin on frame yaks? I plan on building one, one of these days. They are about 1/3-1/2 the weight.
http://www.guillemot-kayaks.com/Building/SkinOnFrame/index.html

[Wes]

There's a pretty big difference in construction time between a stitch and glue kit vs. strip built from scratch. I'd guess 40 or 50 hours vs. 150-200. It's no big deal to rip cedar boards into strips and you don't really need to mill a bead and cove on them, you can plane them to fit instead. Would use nice wood even for a first boat, too much time invested to end up with a second rate boat. I built my first canoe from recycled yellow pine, free but heavy, and beat the crap out of it to see if it would hold up. It did. Otherwise spent abt $200 on glass and epoxy and some ash for trim. Northern or Atlantic cedar is about same cost and weight as red and I think it might be a better boat wood. Combination of different colored wood can make some nice patterns just using stripping pattern with no extra work.

There is some freeware around if you want to design your own stripper. Do a search for Ross Leidy/Blue Heron Kayaks/ Kayak Foundry, one of them should bring it up.

Skin boats are interesting. Robert (?) Morris's book is a good read and I think Amazon has that as well.

Got the itch to build again but have a bathroom gutted and it's calling my name. Sounds a lot like the Mrs. Keep us posted.

[rockfisherman]

http://www.laughingloon.com/pad.t.html

Dave, If you are interested in wood strip kayaks, you might want to check out this site. There's even a video. R'Man

[adson]

Dave,

I would recommend building a CLC stitch & glue boat as your first one.

the kit price is up around $700 but you can probably build one for a lot less
if you do it from plans. and when you build from plans you can buy your materials over time and it won't seem as much.

I fish out of a CLC 17LT and have found it very stable.

the biggest reason to build a plywood boat first, is that you will find yourself
enjoying the building process thoroughly and thinking about what you will
do differently on the next one. as they say you can't build just one.
so make the CLC boat the first, to get you on the water and follow it up with
a strip built boat which will take five times as long to build.

you will find a lot of reasons to justify the second boat
-so you can take a friend along with you
-wife thinks it cool and wants her own
-kids want their own