Clouser question

[MatthewP]

I have this weird problem with my clousers. ALL of them swim sideways. I tie them pretty sparse, with eyes that are probably too big (an effort to make them flip over). I keep the tail pretty sparse, and tie more bucktail into the wing to make the top of the fly more bouyant. The fly looks like every other clouser I've seen. I have some secret ingredient that makes them swim sideways. I'll try to post a pic, but any thoughts in the meantime? I've been staying away from clousers and tying more time-consuming patterns because of this problem. I'd like to get this staple back in the fly box.

[Ray]

Do you use a loop-type or clinch-type knot to tie on the fly to your leader? I clinch-type doesn't allow the fly to move freely.

That's all I can think of now.

[MatthewP]

I use both. Typically, I use a loop knot when fishing clousers. Doesn't seem to make a difference. My only other thought is how far forward the eyes are. Mine are pretty close to the eye of the hook. I've seen other clousers with the eyes much farther back. Has this made a difference for anyone?

[Bob Parsons]

The real question is do they catch fish? A minnow swimming on it's side may look like an injured baitfish.

[stevec]

If your using loop knots i would think the problem may be in hair placement or the eyes not being centered
Maybe the BT is sliding over too one side when you tighten the thread.

[MatthewP]

I thought of that, too, Bob. Doesn't seem to hold water B/C I don't think I've hooked anything with my 'sidewinders'. I like to think of myself as a competent tyer. I'm no Popovics, but I get by. These clousers continue to elude me. I want to get them on the menu for a few reasons. I've got some stocking up to do because I've got a group of buddies coming to fish with me in May. Most don't bring enough (or any) flies (don't know anyone like that, do you guys?). Clousers are quick to tie, and best of all, they CATCH FISH.

I don't think my bucktail is slipping while I'm wrapping thread, though. I keep pretty good symetry throughout. Maybe it's my hook size. I'm tying most on a 1/0 hook (Eagle claw 254ss) with 3.0 eyes. Maybe I should bump down to size 1 hooks.

[Smcdermott]

I don't tie with the 254ss but I think it is a pretty heavy hook. Maybe a different hook like a standard 3407 or a nicer 811s would do the trick. Also, what type of eyes are you using. Good old fashioned lead or even some of the tungsten eyes may be the key.

[MatthewP]

I'm pretty sure the eyes are lead. They're the ones with the recesses for sticking adhesive eyes into. I'll double check that, though. Hadn't thought of that. As far as hook weight, the 254ss seems to be in the neighborhood of the 34007. I've tied on both, and damned if they both don't lie on their sides. I think what I'm going to do is bulk up even a little more on the wing material, and try a size 1 hook. I'm sure that there is one stupid little thing that I'm doing wrong. Thanks for your thoughts, everyone.

[C. GIll]

It has been a while since I looked but, I think the eyes I have seen with recesses for adhesive eyes are pretty light--aluminium maybe? With the relatively heavy Eagle Claw hook "fighting" to track point down maybe your eyes are not heavy enough to fully invert the hook. I'm just guessing... If possible, just tie your eyes on a bare hook and test it in some local pond and see how they behave.

I do like the Tiemco 811S for clousers. Good luck.

[Smcdermott]

I think C. Gill is spot on about those eyes. Considerably lighter than lead. I was also referring to the 3407 hook which is lighter than its stainless counterpart the 34007.

Sean

[captshiner]

Those recessed eyes are brass... got a bag of 50 sitting on front of me. I put a small piece or 2 of lead on the shank right behind the eyes and tie the eyes a little forward than you would standard lead eyes. Doesn't really hinder the action. This on on 3407's. Also if I had to make guess your flies lie on their left sides?

[Wes]

This might sound stupid but are you using something other than bucktail?
I assume bucktail, but other stuff has different and probably less buoyancy.

I might try wrapping the bottom clump of bucktail to the shank slightly into the bend. It has helped on some stuborn types if I keep the bulk of the material to the top side of the shank or pointing to that side. And sparcer on the bottom than the top.

[sandeel9]

I think it is a hook/eye issue. There is a fine balance with the length of the shank, weight of the eyes, and eye placement. I'd start with hook, and work from there.

[MatthewP]

I stopped at the Bear's Den last night to shop for alternative eyes. The eyes with the recess are brass. I picked up some large lead eyes instead. That's definitely a step in the right direction. I tie all of my saltwater flies on stainless hooks, but I think the lead will help offset the heavier stainless. I'm assuming other guys have had success getting stainless hooks to flip over, so I'll keep trying with that. Captshiner, I know what you're getting at with the clousers lying on the left side. When wrapping the wing, the bucktail can sometimes get a "cowlick" that sticks up over the left side of the dumbell (opposite if you tie left-handed). I keep a close eye on that, but it may have been a problem in the past. I tied a few new clousers last night on the 34007, lead eyes farther down the shank, bulkier wing. Waiting for a warm day to swim them. Will keep you informed. Thanks again, everyone, for your input.

I've got to print a retraction of sorts, folks. One of my buddies mentioned above, we'll call him The Doctor, read this thread yesterday and reminded me that he ties his own. Great tyer. In fact, his clousers fly right! My humblest apologies, Doc. (#$120)

[Smcdermott]

Waiting for a warm day to swim them. Will keep you informed. Thanks again, everyone, for your input. (#$120)

Bathtub is always a good testing enviornment when tying new flies in the offseason.

Sean

[Sentience]

I primarily use the Orvis super eyes (the ones with the recess for the epoxy eyes) with Mustad hooks (size 1/0 and 2/0.) My clousers swim right, so these eyes provide enough weight for these hooks at least. I primarily use intermediate lines, so this is enough weight for me. When you are a shore fisherman these flies feel heavy enough to cast.

They are definitely my workhorse flies.

[strippinchicken]

Matt,
Sorry I couldn't find the exact article, however I do recall an interview with the originator of the clouser. According to him the eye placement should be just forward of the halfway point on the shank of the hook so that it " flies correctly in the water" . Although this does not solve the "sidewinder problem"
I have found that since I started tying clousers in this manner ( i always tied them to far forward) the movement is greatly enhanced, it becomes more of a gliding motion.
Hope this helps, Todd

[MatthewP]

Thought I'd update you guys on my clouser situation. I tested a few of them in Bourne yesterday (COLD! - and hey, big surprise - the fish ain't here yet). Using a 1/0 34007 and large lead eyes tied 1/3 down the shank, the fly flipped over as it should. Now to get tying! Thanks for your suggestions, everyone.