So, is this the payoff?

[Slappy]

Remember the mid to late 1990's when we were buried in small stripers?

It seems like we have finally reached the payoff stage of rebuilding the striper stock. There doesn't seem to be as many fish around, but there are more quality fish driven by those big year classes of the 90's.

Judging by the reports, it looks like more big fish were caught this year than any other year I have seen and I continually read posts of personal bests.

If this is an indicator of what we will see over the next few years, I'm ready!!

One of the best things to come out of the collapse of the stocks was a change in the angling ethic. No more kill'em all, big numbers of big fish were released this year. Let's hope that keeps up too.
--127-3-

[S\\'E]

Not to be a "the glass is half empty" kind of guy but a lot of people who have been around long enough to witness the collapse of the striper fishery feel like it's going to happen again.

The fishing we have now somewhat mirrors what was taking place just before everything went to hell.

[Ray]

If you haven't read Frank Daignault's book; Eastern Tides: A Surfcaster's Life, you really should. It's an interesting look into the hay day of the great NE striper fishery, and its demise. The talk of a surfcaster, or a family of them in this case, taking hundreds of pounds of large stripers for commercial each night for an entire season is amazing to think about today.

[gseries69]

Well, I wouldn't get too excited just yet. I fish in Maine quite a bit and the folks I have fished with up there believe this was the worst year for big fish in a long time by far. These guys are some of the top guides and fishermen of the area so I usually listen to them when they speak, but I'm sure others will have different opinions. The outer edges of the striper migration I would think are a pretty good litmus test for the overall population. If that holds true then the trends certainly don't look too good. For one thing, I think we as recreational fishermen need to look good and hard at ourselves. I ran the outer beaches last weekend and there were a lot of people taking every legal fish they caught...Sat morn I guess was pretty good. There was a lot of giving a keeper to my buddy going on as well, so that the max amount of fish could be taken by each vehicle. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that, these folks are within their rights, but it may be having an impact. Maine tends to have more of C&R tradition then Mass for what ever reason but if you take the recreational harvest, the seal harvest, commercial harvest and issues relating to striper spawning habitat, I get worried that we may be in for another crash. The other issue is that I don't see an organized and efficient conservation group. I think Stripers Forever does a good job but their mission statement is very narrow in focus, not that that's a bad thing. My understanding is that CCA has a lot of infighting between fly-fishermen who tend to be C&R and the rest of the recreational crowd. I don't know this first hand, just what I've heard but if that's the case, take an organization of groups with different agendas and put it up against and organized and effecient commercial fishery with one agenda ($$$) and you might as well put a high school football team up against the Pat's. Enough of my rant. --124-3

[Eric L]

... The outer edges of the striper migration I would think are a pretty good litmus test for the overall population. ...

I would respectfully disagree with that assumption. Edges of species ranges are edges because they are borderline habitat. From what I have been hearing this year, folks heading offshore have found lots of large bass, while those shore fishing or fishing close to shore have found fewer large bass. Trying to guage the status of the population from fishing reports/success is analogous to three blindfolded men trying to identify an elephant.

That said, I think that alot of the large bass population headed offshore to the Stellwagon area/tuna grounds and feasted on large sandeels all summer. Hence there were fewer large bass cruising up along coastline that would eventually wind their way up to Maine. If this is really what's happening the question I would be interested in knowing the answer to is why are more big fish staying offshore and ignoring the inshore forage base that they exploited in years past?

Eric

[lowwall]

I for one have not seen the numbers of fish I used to in the Haba, But the quality is way up. With a nice mixture of fish. The Mack and Pisquatqua I still can't seem to get past the just keeper size. I equate that to me and not the water. One thing I have noticed is the huge decline in FF out there, early 90's there were loads, past years close to 50/50 now you can fish a day out there without encontouring one other fly guy. Probably has allot to do with ease of putting high numbers on the boat years past.

[Nelly]

That said, I think that alot of the large bass population headed offshore to the Stellwagon area/tuna grounds and feasted on large sandeels all summer. Hence there were fewer large bass cruising up along coastline that would eventually wind their way up to Maine. If this is really what's happening the question I would be interested in knowing the answer to is why are more big fish staying offshore and ignoring the inshore forage base that they exploited in years past?

Eric

Isn't it entirely possible that those offshore fish were always there, but went unseen because there were so many fewer boats out there chasing tuna in years past?

It seems like there's plenty of bait inshore this year (lots of pogies), but the inshore bass numbers are down in many spots, and it's not just Maine. My local tackle shop has admitted that reports of local bass catches are way down this season. This summer he was pushing the tuna bite offshore, and fluke bite inshore for those without the means to get out to the bank......that's not evidence of a strong bass fishery - at least in my backyard. These things tend to be cyclical, so maybe that's it, but may not.

It may be too hard to get our arms around the science to ever know for sure.:confused:

[BobG]

Slappy,
Look at things differently for a moment.

When the bass fishery collapsed in the mid-80's, the last thing to go were the really large bass. The smalls were gone, as were the mediums. Large bass were fetching $3 a pound wholesale.
What makes anyone so sure we're not entering another collapse?:confused:


“Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it”


George Santayana

[Onshore]

When the bass fishery collapsed in the mid-80's, the last thing to go were the really large bass. The smalls were gone, as were the mediums. Large bass were fetching $3 a pound wholesale.
What makes anyone so sure we're not entering another collapse?

Well, for one thing, there are still plenty of small fish around with the big ones.

As one who was here before and during the last collapse of the fishery, I agree with Slappy. With the numbers of fish and good mix of sizes; there is no reason to think a collapse is coming. None of the tag surveys, net surveys and other means of stock measurment show anything of the kind. There is very little today to compare with what went on before despite the perrenial nay'sayers.

We have a very healthy striper fishery. But let's keep it that way.

[Eric L]

Isn't it entirely possible that those offshore fish were always there, but went unseen because there were so many fewer boats out there chasing tuna in years past?

It certainly is.


It may be too hard to get our arms around the science to ever know for sure.:confused:

They survey down here on the spawning grounds so I think there is a pretty good handle on overall population size and structure. They are probably overfished right now (it really depends on one's definition of "overfishing), but there are enough good age classes that we are not (yet) headed for the recruitment overfishing that crashed the fishery in the 70's.

FWIW they have to cut the rec. take here in VA this Fall and probably well into the future to make up for the quota overages of the last 2 or 3 years.

Eric

[gseries69]

I would respectfully disagree with that assumption. Edges of species ranges are edges because they are borderline habitat.

Eric

You may have a very good point here and it should certainly be considered. However while the habitat may not be the best in NE, hence a fringe area, Maine has had some very good striper years and the habitat has not changed. Also there was a ton of bait this year but very few fish...I mean it was bad even for small fish, they just weren't there. As it was explained to me by folks who have been fishing for stripers for 30 years, when the big crash happened some years ago, there were still lots of good sized fish on and around the Cape, but it was the outer edges that showed signs of the decline. I guess from my point of view, if the bass population was healthy there would be enough competition among stripers that their range would increase in order to find an abundance of food. Maine was like a bait fish sanctuary this year. Even the boat guys did poorly.

[BobG]

If the bass bio mass was so healthy, then why, for the third summer in a row do bass become virtually impossible to catch from Buzzards Bay, the canal, CCB, and in all the rivers, estuaries and creeks contained therein?
The small bass which would literally invade Buzzards Bay and the entire S Cape....just aren't there in large numbers anymore?
Speaking strictly for myself now, this will be the third year in a row where I've experienced 3 weeks if fair fishing in the sprig, culminating with three weeks of decent fall fishing, with n-o-t-h-i-n-g sandwiched in between.

I know I'm not alone.:rolleyes:

[Onshore]

Stripers swim arround. They do not just migrate between point A and point B. They go where the easiest meal is offered them.

You cannot judge a stocks' viability by the numbers of fish taken in one or two spots from one year to the next.

While some areas of the Cape did not have their usual numbers of fish of any size, other areas did. The tuna guys off Chatham and on Middle Bank found tons of stripers. But, most of you guys backed the idea to keep the EEZ closed even though over the years, there have been huge numbers of fish there.

Boston Harbor and the area between Cape Ann and Cape Cod had good fishing. Plum Island had good fishing. Just read the reports on a large website like this. Some folks are raving over the good fishing and others complain they have no fish.

Each state on the coast does a survey of one kind or another. In March, we will have the results of those combined surveys from Maine to Georgia. Then, we will know if the stocks have increased or decreased. Over the last few years there is been a very slight decrease in numbers; but no where near what would cause a serious stock decline.

Since the stocks came back, the fisheries biologists have surveyed them to death - every year, every state. They and the managers are not going to let the stocks collapse. At the first serious sign of same, you will see more stringent regulations.

Bill

[e-sea-e]

2 quick points:

I spent almost all of june and all of july and august offshore jigging/casting for tuna. we saw and caught a TON of large bass between 6/10 and 8/20. we also saw a ton of bait out there. (For all the fish cops out there, WE WERE NOT TARGETING BASS- WE WERE USING 30-50 LB CLASS SPINNING GEAR AND TARGETING TUNA- i CANT HELP IT IF BIG BASS HIT TUNA JIGS-I KNOW ALL ABOUT THE EEZ RULES, SO DONT BOTHER GOING THERE)durring that same time period, all the rec guys and guides I know on the north shore who fished inshore were saying, wow, theres all the 20-30" bass you could want, but where are the big ones? so, most of the beginning of the year the bigger fsh seemed to be offshore with the bait and the smaller fish were inshore.

then, according to my logs, 8/10 we went out and caught some tuna but didnt catch a single bass OR see any that day and for the rest of the year, up to last sunday, my last day out, havent caught or seen a single bass out there at the NWC. the bait has thinned as well. but, since 8/10, everyone I know who has been fishing inshore has been saying the big bass fishing is great.

so it seems simple- the big bass stayed offshore, then came inshore as the year went on. why didnt the small bass stay offshore? I dont know- I hear tuna love to eat schoolies, maybe thats a reason.

Im not ready to yell collapse yet- not even close. but if I had stayed fishing inshore all year I may be singing a different tune.

[Slappy]

I wasn't suggesting that we have quantities of bass around. I think quantities will be limited until we get the guts to resolve the inshore bait issues. (Pogies and herring).

The quality of fish has improved year by year. This year there were not a ton of fish in shore, but there were often quality fish in the mix. Not huge fish, but good size fish from those really big year classes that we had in the 90s. It wasn't just the kayak guys getting good fish inshore, shore guys were catching more large than usual as well.

could it be the last gasp of another dropoff? Yes, it could be, I wasn't around and I don't know the warning signs.

[BobG]

Well, now I feel a lot better about not catching hardly any bass June, July, August and half of Sept.--127-3---127-3---127-3-

[mike z]

We went round and round with this topic a few months ago. Seems some just refuse to see the hand writting on the wall.
I'll quickly retouch the same points I made last time.
The fishery in Maine is not just bad this year. It has been declining for three or more years now. Some of us noticed it right off but many came up with all the same excuses I read here. Many of those naysayers of 3 years ago are the ones crying loudest now. And please, don't tell me they just swim around alot. Maybe if we just started fishing last year that would work. I'm talking about a good number of skilled fishermen who each have multiple DECADES of experience. You're telling me that after 20 years the stripers just suddenly took a sharp right turn at Plum Island despite the miles of prime habitat and endless bait supply to the north? No way. The outer fringes of the range retracts as the population gets smaller. It's basic population dynamics.
The same is true of secondary habitat as well. When the population is high, all available habitat is used including less desirable secondary habitat. As the population get smaller, it retracts from the secondary habitat and concentrates only in the primary habitat [Merrimac river mouth, elbow of the Cape, off shore etc]. For 20 years you could go to any rock pile between Popham beach in Maine and Watch Hill in Rhode Island any time between June and October and as long as there was just a bit of whitewater, schoolies would be there, sure thing. Along every major jetty along that same shore line during that same time period there was ALWAYS a resident population of small schoolies that lived there full time in season. Wind, bait, weather didn't matter. They lived there. That was a constant for the 20 years I fished the same places over and over. Suddenly for the first time in 20 years those fish are gone. The prettiest, cleanest, most prime whitewater devoid of stripers. Huge schools of silversides, bunker and mullet swimming along the best jetties on the east coast and NO stripers bothering them. Why? Because stripers just swim around alot? I guess it took 'em 20 years to decide they were all gonna hang out with the bluefin rather than return to their normal haunts.
Maybe if you only fish the northeast once or twice a season these days, or if you only read about fishing the northeast that would be a useful explanation. Or maybe if you've only fished for stripers for the last five or six years and didn't experience the comeback in the late 80s and the glut of the 90s you don't notice a decline.
Or maybe you've been in on the outstanding fishing for large that has been going on in a few select locations and you're happy with what you've got today.
Read Daignault. The fishing he describes at the end of the 70s sounds exactly like whats going on now. And in the same places.

One last point for my rant and I'll crawl back under my rock.
Anybody who's lulled into a false sense of security by the belief that there is some kind of increased catch and release ethic hasn't seen the all night eel slingers come in off the Merrimack. Hasn't seen the wire liners come in off of Chatham and missed the pleasure of observing the huge fleet live lining pogies in Narragansett Bay.
Sure, LOTS of bigs being landed this season. But you're kidding yourself if you think many are going back.

[BobG]

Excellent points mike z!:brow
I could not have stated them better myself. But you forgot one area, Cape Cod. The bass down my way, after invading every bay, cove, inlet, beach, canal, harbor, island, flat, and estuary suddenly decided to bypass all those places after countless decades, and head straight for the EEZ. The entire bass population now happily resides at the EEZ.
The fishing this past summer was WORSE than the collapse of the late 70's and early 80's. I saw it, and fished through it.

Now I'll join you under that rock.;)

[mpjoey]

Has anyone considered the warm/hot, rainfree summer we have had? If bass prefer a certain water temp (come in when the water warms from the cold temps of the winter and go deep when it warms over the summer, then come back when the water cools a bit in the fall), then maybe the experiences folks are having may be related to bass following a preferred temp zone which has been modifed due to the exceptionally warm/dry summer we have had? Not sure it the theory "holds water", but it may explain their migration to areas where the water temp suits them best...obviously there is lots of bait, but the bait can tolerate warmer water temps and the bass prefer to forage where the water is cooler..even if they find plenty of forage offshore..It doesnt explain the size v. quantity issue, but it may explain their general movements from inshore to offshore back inshore...perhaps the schoolies are also more tolerant of warmer water (as they do tend to hang out near the surface where water temps tend to be warmer anyways?)

Just my 2 cents..

[Doug Jowett]

Not to be a "the glass is half empty" kind of guy but a lot of people who have been around long enough to witness the collapse of the striper fishery feel like it's going to happen again.

The fishing we have now somewhat mirrors what was taking place just before everything went to hell.

That's what I have been saying for 5 years. Feels just like the last collapse. I clearly remember catching very large stripers almost on command prior to the last collapse. We thought we had died and gone to striper heaven. The difference now is, many more anglers fishing for the available fish - not a good thing for the future. I hope I'm wrong!!!(#$119)

[Kuskus68]

I have also seen a decline in the numbers here in CT,I fish just about every day and the number of bass near shore is no where near the amount I have seen in the past.

[Nelly]

Has anyone considered the warm/hot, rainfree summer we have had? If bass prefer a certain water temp (come in when the water warms from the cold temps of the winter and go deep when it warms over the summer, then come back when the water cools a bit in the fall), then maybe the experiences folks are having may be related to bass following a preferred temp zone which has been modifed due to the exceptionally warm/dry summer we have had? Not sure it the theory "holds water", but it may explain their migration to areas where the water temp suits them best...obviously there is lots of bait, but the bait can tolerate warmer water temps and the bass prefer to forage where the water is cooler..even if they find plenty of forage offshore..It doesnt explain the size v. quantity issue, but it may explain their general movements from inshore to offshore back inshore...perhaps the schoolies are also more tolerant of warmer water (as they do tend to hang out near the surface where water temps tend to be warmer anyways?)

Just my 2 cents..

Last year it was the spring floods that were to blame, this year the dry/hot conditions? At first these theories sound plausible, but year after year they begin to sound like excuses for something more serious. Although it was dry this summer, it really wasn't that hot through most of New England (I know - my wife was pregnant all summer and remarked at how lucky she was that there weren't any sustained heat waves...)


Don't forget, these fish are extremely resilient and frequently survive and thrive through a wide variety of harsh conditions - and although last year's rains may have impacted the inshore bait situation in 2006, I don' t think this summer's weather was a factor. Just my opinion.

I've said this before and I'll say it again; why we ever dropped the size limit from 36" down to 28", and nearly simultaneously doubled the daily quota to 2 fish/day is beyond me.....it just doesn't make sense and in my opinion will prove unsustainable.

[gseries69]

Lot's of good points here. Perhaps there are other factors such as water temps changing the fishes feeding and holding patterns, but that still does not explain the lack of small fish. Even during early spring when one could ease back in to the season with 30 or more fish per tide the small fish were no where near the numbers I can recall. Parsons beach which is usually a no brainer was even void of schoolies. Some folks argue it's commercial guys, some folks argue the rec limits are too high. I wish it was as simple as the fish swimming around to different areas or the need to change a rec limit or slot size, but in my opinion these are answers that are too simple. Conservation issues tend to be much more complex. What worries me more is the condition of their spawning habitat, namely the Chesapeake since 70-90 percent of spawning happens there. There are so many factors that can cause poor spawning years, some man made and some natural. And what about the mycobacteria found in stripers starting in the late 90's that could be having a real effect now. Then again it could be a balancing act between the stripers and the menhaden. When the striper popultion exploded the pogies were in a serious decline. Maybe things are just returning to a balance. Too many questions...not enough answers. I just get the feeling that something is wrong and at the same time don't feel the fisheries managers have a good handle on it.

[constant_menace]

I'm with Nelly, the 2 fish per day does seem to be a little short sighted. Here is an interesting graph from http://www.nefsc.noaa.gov/sos/spsyn/af/sbass/ that speaks directly to the Spawning Stock Biomass.

Interesting to see when the update with 2006 findings to see which direction the trends go. But it does lend itself to the difficulties of managing fish stocks. Counting what you can't see.

I do have to think the Striped Bass fishery is a healthy one, based on personal experience over the past few years. Trends will and do vary, but that does not a problem make.