Executive Order: Protection of Striped Bass and Red Drum Fish Populations

[wally gator]

President Bush signed this Executive Order on October 20th:

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2007/10/20071020-4.html

[brushfly]

Wally

There's three threads on this subject in the NE forum with some good points going both ways. One of them is eight pages long already.

[wally gator]

D'oh! Never saw it in the other forum.

[venture]

I think he signed this order right after asking for $43 Billion more to fund his war in Iraq. It's quite in line with what he loves most......Waging war and Fishing for Stripers. Too bad he's got his priorities mixed up. He should be protecting peoples lives first.....here and abroad, and then fund the world's fisheries with the extra $43 billion he thinks we have to spare.

[AndyF]

Why don't we not mix politics and fishing. The forum will be better off.

[brushfly]

Andy,

O.K, I'm going to delete my politcal slander and position. One thing we should think about that if he executed and executive order to close down this fishery, he or a future president could do the same regarding MPA's, Windfarms, and such. Just a thought.The crux of what he did is political so if the moderator feels the same he'll lock it down. Besides, with all the regulations in place, I think politics has effected our fishing. No?

Other than you East End guys and Luv2fish, (appreciated), these boards have been quiet all year and this one could have gotten it cookin, albiet in the wrong direction.

[AndyF]

Brush-- hey, I'm not the moderator so if anyone wants to post by all means. . . . And you're right--the forum has been slow, which is kind of sad. My thought was simply that we all share a passion for saltwater fly fishing and these forums have always been more about sharing experiences than flaming others, so maybe we're better off sticking to fishing rather than venturing (no pun intended) into Iraq or George Bush generally. I didn't mean that politics should be off limits when they relate to fishing--you raise some good points. And if people really want to use these boards to talk about Iraq, I've got my own views and would be happy to participate at some point, but my vote would be let's stick to fishing. (As to your now deleted post--at least it was kind of funny.)

[NMB]

the forum is supposed to be about "Saltwater FLY Fishing". once the topic gets diluted to the virtues of chunking and live lining it's bound to get way off course. now it's sports, political commentary, opinion, current events, and anything and everything else. while it has gotten watered do to a fair-thee-well, there is still some good content.

[venture]

I take responsibility for my political statement. Are the participants of this forum only allowed to talk about fly fishing? Bashing or spamming should not be allowed, but voicing our opinions should always be allowed as this is what our country has stood for and is what our for-fathers have fought for.....freedom of speech. Are we afraid to debate? I am not. And this political statement not only allows others to voice their opinions but also livens up a board that is sometimes sleeping.

Perhaps a fishing report is in order to appease some folks here. OK.... I honestly went fishing yesterday in Huntington Bay. Paddled my kayak accross to Lloyd Harbor. Caught three small bass on flies amidst tons of peanut bunker. The day before I hooked sea robins at Sunken Meadow Park near the Nissy river. Tons of peanuts......and tons of sea robins chasing them. Saw no one catch anything but sea robins. Hope this report sparks up the board more than a potential political debate that perhaps can make us all think a little harder and perhaps better ourselves on a larger scale.

[NMB]

venture, opinions on fly fishing is what this all american forum is supposed to be all about. however, the seemingly compelling need to voice (impose) OFF TOPIC political views on a fly fishing forum is simply inappropriate. kind of like farting at the dinner table. sure it's natural and leagal, but the place dictates some degree of decorum. go fart in the bathroom and vent your political views on iraq on one of the thousands of forum dedicated to that.

[venture]

OK, NBR, then let me then re-state what I originally said in a way that may make you feel more comfortable. I wish our president would spend $43 Billion dollars more on making our world more ecologically correct rather than on "other" priorities that may or may not be worth spending our precious tax dollars on. This would then would fill our waters with many more striped bass, false albacore and tuna and perhaps other species we all enjoy fishing for on fly rods.

I won't retaliate to your bashing, as I don't believe it to be necessary nor appropriate. There was no bashing until your last post....only opinions. But I do think that we, as fisherman and conscience human beings who love nature need to be more involved with government and politics so to protect our natural resources for ourselves and our children's children. We cannot turn a blind eye to our government when it comes to our globe and the humanity that populates it. It is all connected......even to fly fishing.

[NMB]

earth calling spaceship VENTURE come in please, come in.

[brushfly]

venture, opinions on fly fishing is what this all american forum is supposed to be all about. however, the seemingly compelling need to voice (impose) OFF TOPIC political views on a fly fishing forum is simply inappropriate. kind of like farting at the dinner table. sure it's natural and leagal, but the place dictates some degree of decorum. go fart in the bathroom and vent your political views on iraq on one of the thousands of forum dedicated to that.

What's so OFF TOPIC as expressing where our government spends their money?

Yes, this is a fly fishing forum. It also has covered chunking, skishing, clamming, FOREIGN tourism, sports, photography and video use, fisheries management (insert Politics here) and very much politics. If you read the threads on the NE forum regarding this same subject it is VERY civil with many expressing their feelings both from the recreational and commercial sector. Do we need it, not really, but it is an open forum and we're all entitled to express our opinion. At least here in America.

Andy, maybe you said it best. Lets discuss the best saltwater fly ever. I go with the Clouser.

[NMB]

brushfly, that's my point-this is a FLY fishing forum which has welcomed threads on other types of fishing. my simple point is that welcoming off topic subject matter invites other even more way off topic (off fishing) subject matter, and i for one think that it detracts and distracts. that said, environmental and ecological issues that pertain to fishing seem to me to be ok as are conservation related issues. frankly i enjoy the chunking and other fishing topics too. but iraq, baseball etc....naah. now, to answer your far more important question, i've become quite enamored with the deep eel pattern this year here on the flats of cape cod. it's kind of a clouser pattern tied like an eel. often with a weed guard which serves the purpose of kicking up sand when the fly is scratched along the bottom.

[filmfly]

Sorry just had to add some humor here....

Wayne

[venture]

Kinda sums it up Wayne. Thanks for finding some humor in his tragic tenure. He's due in California tomorrow. Again, FEMA is too late and understaffed. 1500 National Guard troops called in to help the firefighters. They could have used more troops but most were somewhere else. Close to a half million acres burning with many still out of control yet were short handed. Wonder why. California will stay scorched for decades to come. The pollution from this fire will add to the world's problems, not to mention the California mountain golden trout fishery......just to stay on the topic of fly fishing. By the way, is that a fly rod in Bush senior's hand?

[AndyF]

Howie: in the event of a fire, flood or other natural disaster, are you going to sit around and wait for the FEDERAL government to step in? No, you are going to look to first responders at the state, county or other regional level, maybe with backup logistical assistance from FEMA. Bush today signed a major disaster declaration that will speed federal dollars to people whose property losses aren't covered by insurance and FEMA is also involved on the ground in California. I would venture (no pun) to say that you have not a shred of evidence to support any connection between FEMA's response to this fire and US troops being in Iraq. My guess is that no matter what the federal government did here, you would find a way to blame Bush. Bush opens up federal protection to striped bass, a fish near and dear to our hearts, something no president to my knowledge has done despite years of lobbying by CCA and others, and your response is to blame Bush. Fine.

I have an idea. Let's plan on a reel-time happy hour apres fishing this time in 2009, less than a year into Hillary's term, and I'll buy you a beer if you don't miss George Bush by then. :-% If Rudy wins, well, beer's still on me.

By the way, what kind of fly do you think Bush used to catch that striper? Crawfish? I know Howie's vote for Bush's favorite fly: deceiver!

[venture]

Hi Andy,

I will confess that I hate Bush Junior, and I may blame him for many things that are essentially out of his control. But in the case of this present firestorm, it is my belief that FEMA again was late and disorganized. They only reacted to this disaster 36 hours ago. I believe they should have been much more proactive especially knowing that California suffers from this type of problem each year at this time. When watching CNN last night, the head of FEMA still looked confused and could not exactly detail their plan of attach other than saying that they are now fully involved. He skirted many questions because obviously he had no real specific answers.

It is also my belief that our troops are fighting a war in the wrong place, and have made things worse. Instead of fully committing our troops to Akanistan and get that S.O.B. Binladen right after 9/11, we elected to go to war with a country that had nothing to do with 9/11. We sent 35,000 troops to Afkanistan where we knew he was. We sent 150,000 troops to Iraq. And we did this without any proof, nor thought of outcome. Right from the beginning I knew this was a mistake. I actually thought that Bush Jr was retaliating in Iraq because his dad never was able or elected not to finish the job in Iraq in the early 90s. I think Bush Jr had something to prove to himself and his dad and used our youngsters lives to do it. Now it is a mess.....and neither the democrates nor the republicans have an answer. Our president created this mess. And Binladen still lives and breaths. And with 150,000 troops in the wrong place, hopefully we will not get hit from another direction and be defenseless. Look what happened at Pearl Harbor. Most of our ships were in one place, creatiing a huge target for our enemy.....and leaving us defenseless almost everywhere else. This is another liability...perhaps an even greater one to think about.

Hillary nor anyone else has any good answers to this "hot-bed" that we created. I will venture (no pun intended) to say that future generations will frown on this present administration, which currently only has a 25% approval rating....one of the lowest in history. So when it comes to fixing this mess we are in now, I am also at a loss, like everyone else. Can we pull out....I think not. Can we keep it going and be successful....I think not. Will Turkey now join in.....perhaps so. Its a mess.

Actually I would enjoy a nice happy hour where we can discuss fishing and anything else that comes to mind, and do so with a good stiff drink. I think Bush senior caught that fish on a rubber shad. Bush Jr was using a deceiver but did catch anything that day.....

And back to the fishing report. The north shore of Long Island is over-run by peanut bunker. No matter where ever you go, they are there. I personally have never seen so much bait everywhere. A few days ago, I would snag a peanut on almost every cast. When the weather breaks tomorrow or the next day.....I am going to do some blackfishing in the sound as a change of pace. Love those guys....very tasty and very sporty for bottom fish. I'll get back to fly fishing when I see more fish chasing the peanuts.

[venture]

Andy, You got me going on a topic that is very passionate to me. If you ever want to debate these topics, perhaps we should do it through another venue. If you are ever in the Huntington area let me know. We discuss politics while fishing anytime, especially if the fishing is slow..

[AndyF]

Okay, you got me. You're entitled to your opinion.

1. Sending troops to Iraq had nothing to do with our inability to catch Bin Laden. There were (and are) plenty of troops in Afghanastan. Bin laden likely fled to Pakistan. Pakistan was then and remains a relatively cooperative country with nuclear weapons and lots of Islamic extremists. If we moved into Pakistan to find Bin Laden we would likely cause chaos in that country and the toppling of a relatively cooperative if not friendly regime. Then you'd really have something to blame Bush about.

2. "we elected to go to war with a country that had nothing to do with 9/11 . . . without any proof, nor thought of outcome." Iraq might have had nothing to do with 9/11 (although there is credible proof to the contrary) but it had lots to do with international terrorism. It is now known that Iraq had been harboring known terrorists, and where did all these Iraqi al Quada insurgents come from? Not all from other countries. Iraq was also a known sponsor of terrorism, directly funding families of suicide bombers in Israel, for example. His regime used WMDs against Iran and his own people. This is documented fact.

3. "Right from the beginning I knew this was a mistake. I actually thought that Bush Jr was retaliating in Iraq because his dad never was able or elected not to finish the job in Iraq in the early 90s." You may have been more prescient than most, but things look a lot different in hindsight. Did you ever wonder why Congress overwhelmingly approved the use of force? Why are democrats in Congress falling over themselves to come up with explanations for their votes at the time? It is because it was universally accepted by every major intelligence agency in the world that Iraq had WMDs, that he used them in the past, that he would develop them in the future, and that he was deceiving inspectors.

"Other countries possess weapons of mass destruction and ballistic missiles. With Saddam, there is one big difference: He has used them. Not once, but repeatedly. Unleashing chemical weapons against Iranian troops during a decade-long war. Not only against soldiers, but against civilians, firing Scud missiles at the citizens of Israel, Saudi Arabia, Bahrain and Iran. And not only against a foreign enemy, but even against his own people, gassing Kurdish civilians in Northern Iraq.

The international community had little doubt then, and I have no doubt today, that left unchecked, Saddam Hussein will use these terrible weapons again."

George Bush? No, that was Bill Clinton in 1998. Read the rest of the transcript here (http://www.cnn.com/ALLPOLITICS/stories/1998/12/16/transcripts/clinton.html)

Or read this (http://www.number-10.gov.uk/files/pdf/iraqdossier.pdf)detailed pre-war intelligence report by the British government, complete with graphic and horrific pictures. http://www.number-10.gov.uk/files/pdf/iraqdossier.pdf

And we now know that inspections and santions would not have worked particularly given what we now know about how Saddam was siphoning billions of dollars from the UN.

4. "And with 150,000 troops in the wrong place, hopefully we will not get hit from another direction and be defenseless. Look what happened at Pearl Harbor. Most of our ships were in one place, creatiing a huge target for our enemy.....and leaving us defenseless almost everywhere else. This is another liability...perhaps an even greater one to think about. " On 9/12/01, what would you have put the odds of another terrorist attack happening within the next six years? Does Bush get any credit for that? It is also a fact that the military experts AGREE that we have plenty of military resources to respond to any military threat around the world. In fact, only a small percentage of our military resources are in Iraq right now.

I could go on, but I doubt I would convince you any more than you can convince me.

Glad to hear about the peanut bunker. I'm hoping for a long fall run and some nice days during the herring run. Looking forward to those drinks too.

[AndyF]

Howie: would love to talk further over fishing sometime. I was sorry to hear you sold your boat. Josh told me about your trips and I enjoyed reading your reports about the big tuna excursions.

[venture]

Andy,

I enjoyed reading your detailed reply. I can see that you use logic and think deeply on such important matters. I respect that. But our differences lie in many of the core basic truths. From there is where we our thoughts differ. And from there we both form our logical thinking. This is what makes a good debate. Hopefully we will get the chance one day to do just that.

I have yet to sell my boat. It was not launched this year as I spent all of the summer in Quebec on the Gaspe Peninsula. I am thinking of launching it again in the spring. Hopefully one day we can go offshore. Josh caught his first marlin that day in the fishtails and was most excited to "bill" it single handedly.

Supposed to go Blackfishing today in the sound but looks a little nasty. There is a black fishing tournament (can you believe that!!) in Huntington this weekend and my friend entered his boat. We were supposed to rehearse for it today and tomorrow....but looks like maybe not. We're after the prize money.....black fish...can you imagine that. They may take a crab imitation but pretty tough to get down 35 feet, so I decided to fish with 10oz of lead and some green crabs.

[brushfly]

Well said boys from whaterver side your from. I think we all want the same thing.

That "peacefull" world we once lived in some years back where you biggest potential enemy may have been the surf guy who you came in on to closely when bass were busting along the breakers at Turtles although I doubt Howie was able to pull this off in his Topaz. This storm may kick start the real thing as next weeks temps hover down around the mid 50's. Enjoy.

[venture]

North Shore shore line delema?

There is so much bait around on shore, but no real concentration of fish on shore. If these conditions existed on the Vineyard or Montauk there would be a fish on every cast.....with fly especially. I can remember days in even on the south shore surf of the Vineyard when bait reached this level, you could lay a 30 - 40 foot cast and hook up big time. Not the case here on the north shore where you can lay out 60 - 70 feet. Peanut bunker everywhere....the favorite of many preditors as it's oil attracts everything including sea robins.

This front and colder temps will get this bait moving. The usual late fall blitzes occur in 30 - 40 feet of water at Eatons Rip, and 11B. This is for sure. I hope this front doesnt move the bait off to these areas leaving the shoreline barren of fish. That may be where this beach bait may wind up. Then it's just a matter of jigging tins at said areas.....quite a boring way to catch them.

I would love to know where we can get some shoreline blitzes with flyrod/waders...... and which shoreline spots historically have produced in the past. Anyone have a clue? Fished Lloyds beach a few days ago and picked up three very small bass over a three hour wade. Not so productive.....and tons of bait.

Perhaps the outer beaches like the brush pile shoreline at eatons which is accessable by small beached boat.........used to be great years back when I had a 14ft tin boat. Maybe Sunken Meadow.....huge amount of bait there now, up and down the beaches, with them stacked like sardines in a tin in the bowl of the Nissy bar?

[brushfly]

Howie,

Consistent blitzes on the beach is not par for the course around here. Even with the boat, I've had great blitz fishing a number of times this year on bass in Price's Bend, blues in Lloyd Harbor and out in front. Go back the next day same tide, and it looks like a graveyard. I don't think the tides and current traps and holds the bait as predictable as out east.

With that said, take that Yak towards the old channel/ Sand city on the outgoing as the last two times out, there's been East End like blitzing going on with blues and a splash or two from bonito/albies here and there (I think). I think this pattern is setting up nicely and a friend of mine followed it right from the Old Channel, along Valley Grove and right out into the sound. This was all pre-wind this week. Not sure what were going to find as we move forward other than some resident schoolies here and there. I hope it lights up inside and that the peanuts hung in there.

One thing you can hang your hat on around here, when you see Bufflehead ducks in Huntington Harbor, the backwater is FINISHED. Head to the sound for the afformentioned jigging you spoke of. Never fails.

[venture]

Pre- wind I saw birds working hard over near sand city while I fished the beach off Lloyds. You suggest going straight north from Bay Crest, beach the yak at the tip of Sand City, and fish from the shore....or the yak? Either of those would work for me as I definately would not want to put myself paddling through a bunch of lure chucking boats chasing the blues around. Perhaps a drive to Sand City around from Eatons may be a safer way to go. But I'll check it out and see, and if its not too busy.....I have no problem. It's those busy guys chasing fish who dont see the kayak that I fear.

[brushfly]

I thought from the Yak but you bring up a good point regarding bozos. Probably could do it either way. Either from BC, gates locked right now still have your key?
Or drive it around to Sand City. I think you need the yak though. I haven't seen them on the beach within fly range.

One other thing. Just drove into town and took the harbor drive. Saw my first buffleheads. :( Say it ain't so......don't like the sound late fall in a 17'.

[venture]

Forget it. I would never fish in the channel out of the yak with a bluefish blitz going on. Can't even imagine how small it would feel against the enslaught of plugs, wakes and bows.