Ethenal fuel

[scruffy_fish]

I'm sure this has been beat to death, but Maine is now going to 10% mix and New Hampshire is already uses it. So what are my alternatives with an older 2 stroke Mariner motor.

Is there an option other than buying a new motor? I hear airplane fuel maybe the only alternative?

Thanks

[Onshore]

Start the season with a new fuel filter and change it midway through.
Don't save your gas in tank at end of season. You should not have any great problems.

Major problems with ethonol is that it will react to older fiberglass gas tanks and cause
a sludge that clogs the motor.

[Duckonthefly]

Most marinas and parts stores are selling an additve. You can also use octaine boost which you can buy at any parts store or even walmart.

[z-drive]

don't skimp on the filter either, racor all the way. i've learnt the hard way and kind of still am.

[Codfisher]

When is Maine going to E10 or have they already? .. I am still running out of Gloucester and wont be in Maine for another month.

Be careful not to mix "old" Maine gas (MBTE) with ethanol...you will get seperation and if you do make sure to check your filters often. I had about 20 gals of MBTE in the tank when I filled with 90 gals of E10 last year and it still caused a problem.

[DaleH]

Yup, as George opined, run your MTBE tank as low as possible. Even then I have seen issues with boats older than 1990s, due to the 'crap' inside the tank that the ethanol will dissolve like a knife thru hot butter. If I had that issue, I'd add some PRI-G, in shock treatment dosage, to the MTBE fuel and then run around to lower the level. Then fill with E10 as needed ... and keep an eye on your filters.

If carrying a spare filter (you should), make sure to keep 1 or 2 (I recommend 2) strap wrenches on board to make the swap-out if/when needed.

[FuelTesters]

Most marinas and parts stores are selling an additve. You can also use octaine boost which you can buy at any parts store or even walmart.
Hi-
I posted on this board once back in April, but unable to find post - I seem to be having problems with my sign-in and control panel - so sorry I couldn't post more sooner.

Want to mention that there is NOT a single additive that will prevent all problems boaters are experiencing with ethanol-blends of fuel (E10).
If there was, the major gas refineries (Shell, BP, Mobil etc.) would already be adding it to the fuel!
Gasoline contains hundreds of ingredients.
Many of the ingredients in gas are there to stabilize the fuel, prevent water absorption, etc. (preservatives, conditioners, etc.).

Also use caution (check ingredients and MSDS) when purchasing fuel additives and gas treatment products. - MANY contain alcohols, and will increase E10 over the legal limit of 10%.
Ethanol is an excellent water absorber, fuel system cleaner, solvent, degreaser, antifreeze...So you can understand why additives often use alcohol.

Most marine products that REMOVE water, are ethanol/alcohol based, since ethanol does such a great job at attracting and absorbing water.

Fuel system management rules have dramatically changed since E10, and that includes additives that once were very useful, no longer should be used or used with caution, and/or may no longer be necessary.

E10 cleans the fuel system (usually will not need to add external fuel system cleansers now) - This is part of the problems now too...
When you switchover to E10, if engine older or dirty tank - the dirt, sediment, rust, etc. will be released and clog filters, carburetor...

BTW, Why are you recommending octane booster?
Again most octane boosters are made from ethanol, since pure ethanol has an octane of 113.

I do recommend purchasing higher octane (91 or better) for marine engines, when fuel is E10 - but that's because of the drop in octane (up to 3 points) if fuel water separates and water contaminates.

Also several states are now choosing to sell premium gas without ethanol to give a choice for those engines that can not use alcohol fuel.
(Check your states fuel laws, visit state government site and usually will find under "Department of Energy" or "Department of Agriculture".

I follow the laws for all states, so if you can't find, let me know and I'll send you link for your state.

I'll later add a llonger ist here of marine additives that are alcohol-based in seperate post.

Few Examples:
Evinrude 2 plus 4 fuel conditioner is 95% isopropyl alcohol,
Mercury Marine Fuel System Cleaners contains 15% alcohol.
Turbo Octane Boost 108 contains methanol and t-butyl alcohol.

I'm not telling you not to purchase these products, I'm simply telling you to be aware that they contain alcohol -
and to encourage you to follow simple precautions instead of adding gas additives, unless absolutely necessary and indicated for fuel issue/problem you have.

Hope this helps.

[Gadabout Guinea]

It's not "illegal" to have gas with over 10% alcohol, just probably not a good idea if the 10% is already causing you problems. I've had good luck using Star-tron fuel additive in my two stroke. It is not alcohol based. I think a few other folks have recommended it on this site too. Other than adding that to premium fuel, I haven't had any issues running E10, but I hear that a few states like CA, OR, and WA will be granting a "marine exception" so docks can sell alcohol free fuel.

My two sheckles - CJP

[tommat]

Here is what I would do if I had to do it all over again and I have a good feel about this since my 1992 Yamaha has been down ever since we went to E10 here in Jersey.

If your fuel lines are old and or not E10 rated replace them all, even the one inside your engine going to the carbs. Drain all your fuel from your tank if it's a in the deck and then have it professionally cleaned. Add a 10 micron racor if you don't have one and you should be good to go.

I never had a engine issue before and the E10 just killed me. Haven't had my boat in the water in over a year now...

[z-drive]

my yamaha hated e10. i gave up too. filters like you read about, and the carbs still wouldnt stay clean.

[FuelTesters]

It's not "illegal" to have gas with over 10% alcohol, just probably not a good idea if the 10% is already causing you problems. I've had good luck using Star-tron fuel additive in my two stroke. It is not alcohol based. I think a few other folks have recommended it on this site too. Other than adding that to premium fuel, I haven't had any issues running E10, but I hear that a few states like CA, OR, and WA will be granting a "marine exception" so docks can sell alcohol free fuel.

My two sheckles - CJP

It is illegal for E10 to contain over 10% ethanol.Ethanol is supplied in varied blends - E85 is up to 85% ethanol, E100 is up to 100% ethanol, etc..

Currently all marine and auto manufacturers only permit 10% ethanol in a conventional engine -
If you have a Flex Fuel Vehicle (E85) they can use either E10 E85 or any blend in between, the gas cap is labeled.

Many boat and auto racing engines run on high ethanol content fuels, (usually 72 to 86%) but they are specifically designed for this high oxygen type of fuel.

Several states have tried to increase E10 blends to E15 and E20, (to meet their quotas for renewable fuels) but I'm certain the auto/marine companies will not budge on this issue for a long time.
I don't think any states were able to pass laws for E15 or E20, let me know if any states do-

Renewable Fuels = corn/grain ethanol, cellulosic ethanol and biodiesel.

Every gas-powered engine sold includes fuel recommendations (check your owners/service manual) -
Other than flex fuel and alternative vehicles no major car/boat manufacturers permit over E10.

Evinrude now is selling an E85 outboard to the public, but I'm referring to conventional engines in this post, not engines specifically designed for E85 or other fuels.

Your warranty will also include statement about ethanol-blends allowed.

And BTW, private gas pumps (eg. private marine stations) do not have to follow same guidelines for renewable fuels - They already are allowed to sell fuel without ethanol, unless state has specific law requiring it.
But they also don't have to label pumps E10 (in state's that require) when ethanol is added (sometimes a problem for consumers).

Actually no pump (public or private) is "required" to dispense E10, based on federal laws. But some individual states are requiring E10, to help meet their quota for renewable fuels.

Don't confuse renewable fuel requirements (RFS) with oxygenating (Clean Air Act) requirements.
When gas is oxygenated, ethanol is used (since MTBE was banned).
Different laws for different reasons.

BTW, states that have many E85 pumps (corn-belt) have no problem meeting their quotas for renewable fuels -

Had FFV's and E85 pumps grown in popularity as planned (and highly subsidized by U.S. government past 5 or so years) you would not be seeing pumps switching to E10 all over today.

E85 vehicles make sense, E100 vehicles make more sense (E.G. Brazil)...
E10 gas does not.

Due to decreased fuel efficiency of ethanol blends, E10 is doing very little to decrease petroleum consumption., but it sure is causing alot of problems and increased costs for many people with older and/or marine engines.

View EPA Renewable Fuels Standards Program 2008 updates here:http://www.epa.gov/oms/renewablefuels/

I think this study may interest you:
Marine Outboard Driveability Assessment to Determine Impacts of a 10% and 20% Ethanol Gasoline Fuel Blend on a Small Batch of (Mercury) Engines.http://www.environment.gov.au/atmosphere/fuelquality/publications/marine/index.html

[Capt. John]

Interesting and at the same time a shame that the oil companies are the only ones profiting from Ethanol brand fuels !! This is how I see it...Maine is turning over to ethan fuels because of the great gov. kickbacks to them for using it (I should say Maine fuel distributors). The fuel is going to cause many problems for many people. It lowers fuel economy so the gain in less emissions is lost (ie. we use more fuel). On top of all this prices are not going DOWN with or without ethanol in them the prices continue to rise EVERY DAY here in Maine. So the fuel companies receive the $$ kickbacks and do not pass any of it on to the consumer. WE get screwed in every way... just great huh ?
Just a note to all running Susuki's you should carry at least one motor fuel filter on board (I call it a rock-catcher) the small fuel fitler on the rear left side of the motor. It clogs with ethanol which I have learned over the years of fishing between MA and Maine (mixing fuels). Also not super happy to hear everyone saying thier Yamahas hate the ethanol !! Just ordered a new boat with a Yahama (4stroke) but I'm hoping that since it's brand new I'll start it off right from the get-go with the rip off ethanol fuel and won't have too many problems ? :rolleyes:

[rhodyflyguy]

If you leave yout gas in your boat over the winter, pump out about a quart at the beginniung of the next year. Condensation seems to form in lines, this happened to my boat thios year, but pumping out the gas to clear the lines saved a major headache. Ethanol also can eat away fuel lines a bit, causing sludge to form, regardless of whether or not you have supposedly alcohol resistant fuel lines.

[Gadabout Guinea]

My not very well made point was that the laws on ethanol content are specified for fuel providers, and that worrying that an additive you put in your gas tank changed your fuel mixture to 10.5% ethanol would not be reason to fear a life sentence in San Quentin, but would not be a good idea if 10.0% was already giving you problems.

If you read the cited statute, you'll see that E10 is just the beginning! They will be increasing the amount of "biofuels" we consume and reformulating gas content for some time. I wonder if there will be an incremental effect on our motors by increasing the percentage, or if we've already crossed the threshold at 10% and moves to 15 and 20% will not cause further issues.

Chris

[FuelTesters]

My not very well made point was that the laws on ethanol content are specified for fuel providers, and that worrying that an additive you put in your gas tank changed your fuel mixture to 10.5% ethanol would not be reason to fear a life sentence in San Quentin, but would not be a good idea if 10.0% was already giving you problems.

If you read the cited statute, you'll see that E10 is just the beginning! They will be increasing the amount of "biofuels" we consume and reformulating gas content for some time. I wonder if there will be an incremental effect on our motors by increasing the percentage, or if we've already crossed the threshold at 10% and moves to 15 and 20% will not cause further issues.

Chris

I know this thread may be "dead" - sorry I never got back sooner. As much as I enjoy providing factual information on ethanol, to clear-up common misconceptions - I simply just don't have time to follow all E10 threads found online.

The posts here on "political -government" are pretty much on target. While I strongly support replacing petroleum with alternative fuels, the laws being passed to promote ethanol (E10) are doing little to decrease petroleum consumption. Your typical marine motor or larger auto/truck will notice greater than 10% drop in mpg - so we may actually be using more petroleum with E10 widespread now! Not everyone drives a 1.8 or 2.0 new Toyota which would experience less than a 3% drop in mpg at most...
And as for the pollution the ethanol plants produce, in combination with the oil energy needed for distilling ethanol, you must wonder why our lawmakers are forcing (and subsidizing) ethanol on consumers??????

Recently ACE (American Coalition for Ethanol) went to Washington/EPA seeking approval for increase to E15 (15% ethanol). I just noticed they even have a petition on their website, trying to seek fast approval (probably before consumers will notice).
http://www.ethanol.org/
NOT A SINGLE CONENTIONAL ENGINE IS DESIGNED OR APPROVED FOR USE OF OVER E10. Check your owners manual and warranty, if you don't believe me.
I guess ACE figures we all can run out and by new engines (compatible with E15) if this gets passed. (sarcasm).

The problems ethanol may cause (solvent and water absorbing) increase dramatically as alcohol % increases. (At 5%, few would experience problem -15% would be a nightmare for any marine engine owner).

Just like I support E85 (used only in a flex fuel vehicle), E15 is fine, as long as it's not forced on everyone to use, like E10 recently has been.
Consumers need to speak out to demand their right for choice at the pump! Choice would include sale at ALL public pumps of Non-ethanol, E10, maybe E15, but I have no clue why, and also E85.
Only a few states have laws/provisions for Non-ethanol availability - Usually they'll "allow" , but not require, "Premium non-ethanol 100% Gas".
Most states "allow" private marine stations to sell non-ethanol.
But that doesn't help all others (e.g. classic autos, older autos, lawn equipment, generators, bikers, snowmobiles, high performance luxury cars, and others -who most often have problems with E10 (driveability, performance, parts damage, lack of oxygen sensor, etc.).

Only aircraft grade fuel is allways NON-ethanol (Warning: don't use aircraft fuel in a conventional engine).

ACE won't even release their yearly STATUS report(state ethanol labeling laws) anymore to public (including my company). You need to be a "voting" member of ACE (about $700 yearly dues) to have right to "basic ethanol distribution/laws info".
(Companies like mine don't have the time to call all 50 states every month to see what current policy on ethanol distribution is).

It's fairly obvious to me now that ACE does NOT want consumers/public to know what's going on. Since the ethanol "tax credits, blending credits, incentives, grants, etc." are coming out of the taxpayer's pocket, I think we all should expect ACE, EPA and all others promoting ethanol, to also answer the public's questions and concerns.

Things are getting out-of-hand - Ethanol laws are no longer consumer-friendly. If this keeps up, I think I too will become "anti-ethanol" - Sell my FFV and maybe look into the newest hybrid and electric vehicles in the market.

There are many alternative, non-petroleum fuels (energy) much better than ethanol - A shame the petroleum companies and American auto makers don't seem to want them. We have the science and technology to cure our petroleum addiction - we simply don't have companies wanting to step on the toes of the rich oil companies.
Even "cellulosic" ethanol (not made from farm grain/corn) ethanol has sat on the shelf for years.
Give me a, sporty, fast stylish car that runs on something other than petroleum - at an affordable price - me and millions of other Americans would gladly buy it (when we can afford to).
But leave water-absorbing ethanol out of my marine and lawn engines. Period.

ACE, EPA and all others responsible for E10 promotion knew the problems E10 can/may/will cause, MANY, many years ago. Few of those organizations have done much, if anything, to educate public on necessary precautions.
We try our best - but we are a small company without a public service budget- unable to reach all who may need this info.
http://www.fueltestkit.com/ethanol_engine_precautions.html

READ 1993 (16 years ago!) memo from EPA "Water Phase Separation In Oxygenated Gasoline"
http://www.epa.gov/oms/regs/fuels/rfg/waterphs.pdf
This should be on the nightly news, just like the thousands of other bulletins, research studies, and warnings on E10 I have in my files- But nobody seems to know these documents exist. A real shame.

If I forget to get back to this thread again , please send me a reminder by email. thanks:)
And BTW, adding alcohol-based additives to E10, makes no sense whatsoever, just a waste of money, and yes 10.5% makes little difference, but I have received hundreds of reports from consumers who had warranty claims denied because tank contained 11% or higher alcohol and/or contaminated gasoline. Insurance companies , mechanics and dealers do also use portable fuel testers, we and others supply. Takes only a minute to determine if gas does not meet ASTM standard for ethanol and water content.