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billfish
08-29-2008, 10:54 AM
Use your own judgement, but....... :cool: I am not one to make political statements, but I love McCains pick.. Especially over our boy Romney

So..... A female VP ??? Granted I know nothing more than what Ive read this morning of her, AND NEED TO READ MORE TO KNOW MORE ABOUT HER POLITICAL STANCE AND PREVIOUS VOTES SHE HAS CAST.... But Senator Palin is a lifelong NRA member, actual hunter, blue-collar commercial fisher, Ice-fisher, sailor, snowmobiler, beauty queen, college basketball player and mother of 5. Did I mention she is a hunter and Gun Rights activist?? :-%

Imagine Hill in a duckblind? Yikes? :eek:

But Sarah Polin Ill take with me.. Might look good in waders as well ;) HFT = a song title by Van Halen .... :brow

SteepBank
08-29-2008, 11:07 AM
Her last name is Palin...I deleted my comments because i hate getting into politics on this board...interesting pick is all I'll say

JR13
08-29-2008, 11:17 AM
just like looking at her...

I think this might be an older pic, she just had a kid and look a little more the like the shrink on sopranos now.
http://askpang.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/sabine5.jpg

Ray
08-29-2008, 11:23 AM
The VP debate should be interesting to say the least.

billfish
08-29-2008, 11:43 AM
The VP debate should be interesting to say the least.



I think all the debates will be great to watch... Should show the candidates true colors

And correct, RT is not a place to debate politics... Was just putting out the announcement here, and thought it interesting to the readers here that she does fish !

Menidia*2
08-29-2008, 12:05 PM
I'm not going to indulge in politics here either, but, who would have ever thought that there would be a Vice Presidential candidate whose picture I'd like to have hanging in my fly tying room?

billfish
08-29-2008, 12:08 PM
I'm not going to indulge in politics here either, but, who would have ever thought that there would be a Vice Presidential candidate whose picture I'd like to have hanging in my fly tying room?

Thank you Menidia... That was more my point... ;)

Happy holiday weekend all...

e-sea-e
08-29-2008, 12:21 PM
I have no problem voting for a woman running for any office, look what margret thatcher did as PM of england in the 80s.

thats said, I wont vote for her, b/c I wont for McCain. I dont want to put forth a long rambling statement of my political views, so I'll just say I'd rather pull out my eyes with a fork than suffer through 4 more years of Bush/Channey policies that we'd get with McCain as president..and Im an independent that usually leans towrds the right.

if anyone here likes bush or McCain, fine, thats great, thats what makes our country great. Im not going to tell anyone they are wrong, But I want to see the country go in a different direction, and I dont see that happening with McCain in the white house.

Solid
08-29-2008, 12:27 PM
http://images.cafepress.com/product/133832122v6_240x240_Front_Color-LightPink.jpg

Mark Cahill
08-29-2008, 12:39 PM
I'll say that the Reps. managed to execute their announcement at exactly the right time, with a pic that isn't safe, and plays well to the potential male/female rift in the dems. On the other side, Obama announced his choice at 3 in the morning Friday, kind of annoying anyone that signed up for early sms notice, and he went with the absolutely safest pick he could have made.

My wife was put off the race by the handling of Hillary and swore she would not vote in Nov. Biden might have gotten her back to the booth. I can't wait to see what she says about this, as she's a life long democrat who'd sooner vote for the Devil himself than vote for the "other guys."

Hold your fire folks, her views don't necessarily reflect mine. And I'm most certainly *not* inviting her here to defend herself...

MarkO
08-29-2008, 01:51 PM
she has that dirty librarian thing going on and she fishes too ?--127-3- she got my vote--126-3-

soundownsam
08-29-2008, 02:03 PM
I have no problem voting for a woman running for any office, look what margret thatcher did as PM of england in the 80s.

thats said, I wont vote for her, b/c I wont for McCain. I dont want to put forth a long rambling statement of my political views, so I'll just say I'd rather pull out my eyes with a fork than suffer through 4 more years of Bush/Channey policies that we'd get with McCain as president..and Im an independent that usually leans towrds the right.

if anyone here likes bush or McCain, fine, thats great, thats what makes our country great. Im not going to tell anyone they are wrong, But I want to see the country go in a different direction, and I dont see that happening with McCain in the white house.

That sums it up pretty well I think.

I'm pretty tired of spending billions of dollars building roads and schools in a country that is running a budget surplus of tens of billions of dollars while are roads and schools go to sh*t.

sam

Mattb
08-29-2008, 02:13 PM
As fishermen, everyone here really ought to look at Palin's stance on the proposed Alaska Pebble mine. I was very surprised to see her come out in favor of the project, given her fishing history, and the enormous potential the proposed mine has to destroy the Bristol Bay salmon fishery.

I agree with Mark though - masterful bit of stagecraft by the republicans.

vineyard fisher
08-29-2008, 02:23 PM
Irresponsible choice from a man who is 72 and has had four bouts with cancer, to put someone that inexperienced a heartbeat away...(#$119) And no, you can't compare her inexperience to Obama's so-called inexperience. She's not even in his league.

Tarpon41
08-29-2008, 02:52 PM
But the Ensign...with eight stars in his family tree...liked them then and likes them always...third times charm and beauty...now if Joe "Scranton" can stay on topic the VP debates ought to be more of a test than the Prez and while he does have a "funny" name it won't be funny when it's yes sir Mr. President

Gadabout Guinea
08-29-2008, 03:08 PM
I'll be happy to have someone new to look at!

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e345/cervellibei/Non-Sage/MissWasilla1984.jpg

e-sea-e
08-29-2008, 03:53 PM
http://www.gomoos.org/news/buoynotice.html

Onshore
08-29-2008, 04:25 PM
Whatever else you may say about McCain; you have to admit he knows how to pick the 2nd. Team.
http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e345/cervellibei/Non-Sage/MissWasilla1984.jpg

Markymark
08-29-2008, 05:26 PM
Well, let's see what she looks like if she took the glasses off,let her hair down......

Brant
08-29-2008, 08:46 PM
GILF...now that is really funny.
Good one Solid!!!!

bluefishbnb
08-29-2008, 11:16 PM
The political discussion/comments have gotten me in trouble here before so I'll kind of hold back but this seems like an insult. Yes, shes pretty. Yes she hunts and fishes and all that good stuff. But we dont need a date or deckhand in the White house, we need to turn this country around and start focusing on bringing up the IQ of the American people so we arent so easily swayed and takin advantage of by those who abuse power for their own benefit!
They obviously chose her to say Look we have a minority candidate too, And shes a women like Hilary! so vote for us. And because our schools have gone to s*** and people are so busy just trying to pay their bills and fill their tanks that it just might work!
A sad state in the history of our country!
(#$119)

twofinbluna
08-30-2008, 12:37 AM
Irresponsible choice from a man who is 72 and has had four bouts with cancer, to put someone that inexperienced a heartbeat away. And no, you can't compare her inexperience to Obama's so-called inexperience. She's not even in his league

I read almost that identical quote (your first sentence) in an article that came from the written statement released by Obama's spokeperson...thought it was classic. Come on...Obama is far from what you can call 'experienced'! He was a senator for two years, she has been a governor for a little less than two years, so they are pretty close there. Then Obama was in state government for 7 years or so, she was a mayor of a small town for 6 years...while I would give a slight edge to state government versus mayor of a small town, they really are not that much different there, either. The bottom line is that neither have that much experience.

No matter whether you are a republican or democrat, I think its hard to deny that this was a pretty smart choice by Mcain in terms of getting votes.

--username-deleted--
08-30-2008, 12:39 AM
Based solely on the respective stances on firearms ownership, the Obama/Biden (Mr. 'I authored the assault weapons ban') ticket disgusts me. Also, I need look no further than Obammy's minister, his *refusal* to recite the pledge of alligiance and his wife's 'this is the fist time I've ever been proud of my country' attitude to see all I need to know about him. Am I happy about my choice? Nope. But I'd be struck down by lightning before voting for the dems on this one. The thought of them running the country is to me, a flat-out Obamanation. It's a scary time any way you slice it, though.

But then we said we wouldn't talk politics here. :)

L

Howie
08-30-2008, 12:45 AM
I'd rather discuss the ramifications of being sprayed with tuna blood on the SWC in about 4 hours, but hey, I haven't gotten my tail kicked here in a while, so here goes.

Isn't there something a little wrong in this thread? This is the VP we are talking about, and accusing her of not being "ready" to lead. That leads to the assumption that something would cause McCain to be unable to serve his term.

Now, if I am not mistaken.....which I often am......and I'll be corrected......

She's been governor of Alaska for just under 2 years, so lets call it 650 days.

Across the aisle, we have Obama. One of the great orators of our time to be sure. But, he has, by media accounts (yes, I know, and Cindy McCain too) 143 days of experience as a senator before he got into the campaign.

Wouldn't that make him about 1/4th as experienced, or qualified? Then there is the difference between running a state, and being one of two senators from a state.

Of course, the problem is McCain. He's been in DC too long, he's an insider, and this is about change. So we'll get Joe Biden, who has 6 years MORE time in DC. Hmmm. I get it. It's about change.

It's about me gagging on the first beer in weeks when I hear that he's simply going to remove our dependency on foreign oil in 10 years. Nevermind that it is economically, and logistically impossible. And has been proven so over and over. But that doesn't matter. It sounds good.

That, and the $150 Billion he is going to spend on renewable energy in those same 10 years. Without raising my taxes. See, this will be done, while lowering unemployment. Nevermind that it is a fact that CANNOT be denied that in excess of 90% of jobs in America are created as a direct result of funding by the wealthiest Americans. That's where the $150B will come from. Tax the living daylights out of those who've succeeded and pushed this country forward, and lower unemployment. Who is this guy, David Copperfield?

Fact is, there will be far less incentive for me to crush my mind and work stupid hours running giant telecommunications networks if Obama gets elected. I work harder, more people get to work less. Call me cruel if you will, but Darwin was right on. You want socialism, head somewhere else. We got ahead by rewarding innovators, and those who worked hard. Not by punishing those same people, and taking their salary, and crushing investors with capital gains taxes. You really think that those who will be benefitting from those taxes are going to be running to etrade to make sure that we can make new jobs? Or might it end up going somewhere else?

I guess I missed the waitress, when she comes back, I'll take a glass of Kool-Aid too.

If nothing else (and start a new thread for the Vietnam discussion) I'd rather pick a man who was shot down and tortured for this country, than a man who has no issue with the fact that his wife claims that she is, for the first time, proud of her country. Obama and his wife are both millionaires. She HAS lived the American dream. But she's just proud now? (#$119)

Question is this. We are all at least fairly intelligent people here. Of the 4 of them, who most understands the issues that we discuss often here? You got it repub VP.

So fire away compadres. by the time most of you start shooting, I'll be on the roof of my friends Grady screaming into the malestrom like Captain Dan on Forrest Gump's mast.

As Tony Montana said, I can take your bullets. :brow

Howie
08-30-2008, 12:52 AM
Lhonda beats me to the punch again. Another time I am too long winded. I am hearing rumors he might not be the most aerodynamic among us, but man, always beats me to the trigger.

Obama speaking about understanding the plight of the common man is silly.

It sounds an awful lot like John Kerry asking

"Can I get me a huntin' license here?"

At least Hillary landed under intense fire from hundreds, if not thousands of snipers.......oh, wait. Well she'd have at least had the "family values" stance.....oh wait. Maybe she could have chosen Vince Foster for VP, oh, wait......

What I'd really like is a lecture on morality from a Clinton/Edwards ticket. But that is too much to ask for.

I'll shutup now. I see a herd of people with pitchforks and torches down the street. It seems I have 7 dollars in my wallet, and they feel it is their right to it.

--username-deleted--
08-30-2008, 12:56 AM
You're not going to get an argument from me. On the contrary, I think that was well thought out. Of the lot we have in this kettle of fish, Palin's I think the only who who is even remotely in touch with the average American worker. Her hubby is part Native American, is an oilfield worker and commercial fisherman. She's been the mayor of a small city. She has lived the life of an average American, and can identify with it. Hee family knows a lot better than most pols what 'real life' means to people like me, I believe. I think she was a brilliant choice, and as stated, I'd be damned if I vote for Obama and Biden. I'd be flat-out ashamed to call a man who will pander and deal to the enemy on terror isssues my commander in chief. BTW, I am a registered independent, and do not vote party lines.

L

Howie
08-30-2008, 01:04 AM
Blasphemy!

When the herd that was coming for my 7 dollars heard that you suggested that Kim Jong Il and Ahmadinejad are not close and loyal allies they turned around, and are heading your way. Thanks for taking one for the team.

I mean really Lhonda, you've done it now. To suggest that we shouldn't pander to a leader who openly supports erasing a race and wiping a sovereign nation off the map, and another who threatens weekly to turn Seoul into a "sea of fire"...... You must be mad. This is the change I am being told we need.

What has the UK ever done for us anyway? I'd rather dump surplus grain into the North Korean Military than establish a meaningful trade relationship anyday......

I just can't wait for the slip up at the state of the union address.

Um, Mr. President, I know Pastor Wright is a personal friend, but it is more traditional to say God BLESS America.......

By the way, I too am an independent, but as of 7PM, I'm voting for the girl who moved in across the street!

NMB
08-30-2008, 02:31 AM
up until this bonehead move i was for mccain. now he just seems like another panderring pol who will sacrifice his morals,values and the country-whatever it takes, to get elected. how the hell did he ever pick this nobody from nowhere.pathetic choice.i'm totally bewildered

spitfisher
08-30-2008, 07:51 AM
I'd rather discuss the ramifications of being sprayed with tuna blood on the SWC in about 4 hours, but hey, I haven't gotten my tail kicked here in a while, so here goes.

Isn't there something a little wrong in this thread? This is the VP we are talking about, and accusing her of not being "ready" to lead. That leads to the assumption that something would cause McCain to be unable to serve his term.

Now, if I am not mistaken.....which I often am......and I'll be corrected......

She's been governor of Alaska for just under 2 years, so lets call it 650 days.

Across the aisle, we have Obama. One of the great orators of our time to be sure. But, he has, by media accounts (yes, I know, and Cindy McCain too) 143 days of experience as a senator before he got into the campaign.

Wouldn't that make him about 1/4th as experienced, or qualified? Then there is the difference between running a state, and being one of two senators from a state.

Of course, the problem is McCain. He's been in DC too long, he's an insider, and this is about change. So we'll get Joe Biden, who has 6 years MORE time in DC. Hmmm. I get it. It's about change.

It's about me gagging on the first beer in weeks when I hear that he's simply going to remove our dependency on foreign oil in 10 years. Nevermind that it is economically, and logistically impossible. And has been proven so over and over. But that doesn't matter. It sounds good.

That, and the $150 Billion he is going to spend on renewable energy in those same 10 years. Without raising my taxes. See, this will be done, while lowering unemployment. Nevermind that it is a fact that CANNOT be denied that in excess of 90% of jobs in America are created as a direct result of funding by the wealthiest Americans. That's where the $150B will come from. Tax the living daylights out of those who've succeeded and pushed this country forward, and lower unemployment. Who is this guy, David Copperfield?

Fact is, there will be far less incentive for me to crush my mind and work stupid hours running giant telecommunications networks if Obama gets elected. I work harder, more people get to work less. Call me cruel if you will, but Darwin was right on. You want socialism, head somewhere else. We got ahead by rewarding innovators, and those who worked hard. Not by punishing those same people, and taking their salary, and crushing investors with capital gains taxes. You really think that those who will be benefitting from those taxes are going to be running to etrade to make sure that we can make new jobs? Or might it end up going somewhere else?

I guess I missed the waitress, when she comes back, I'll take a glass of Kool-Aid too.

If nothing else (and start a new thread for the Vietnam discussion) I'd rather pick a man who was shot down and tortured for this country, than a man who has no issue with the fact that his wife claims that she is, for the first time, proud of her country. Obama and his wife are both millionaires. She HAS lived the American dream. But she's just proud now? (#$119)

Question is this. We are all at least fairly intelligent people here. Of the 4 of them, who most understands the issues that we discuss often here? You got it repub VP.

So fire away compadres. by the time most of you start shooting, I'll be on the roof of my friends Grady screaming into the malestrom like Captain Dan on Forrest Gump's mast.

As Tony Montana said, I can take your bullets. :brow


Well put in a concise factual manner- please also add Mr (watch me pull a rabbit out of my hat) Obama, states he wants 150 million hybrid cars on the road. tell me has he thought, who & how are going to buy these? how are they going to be refueled by electricity?- when he's against nuclear power which currently supplies about 30-35% of all of our power thats turned on with a light switch. and lastly how will he get detroit to flip their factories over for this new technology. Technology that the liberal want embrace- unless it a wind farm off of Martha Vinyard.

Kuskus68
08-30-2008, 08:41 AM
The political discussion/comments have gotten me in trouble here before so I'll kind of hold back but this seems like an insult. Yes, shes pretty. Yes she hunts and fishes and all that good stuff. But we dont need a date or deckhand in the White house, we need to turn this country around and start focusing on bringing up the IQ of the American people so we arent so easily swayed and takin advantage of by those who abuse power for their own benefit!
They obviously chose her to say Look we have a minority candidate too, And shes a women like Hilary! so vote for us. And because our schools have gone to s*** and people are so busy just trying to pay their bills and fill their tanks that it just might work!
A sad state in the history of our country!
(#$119)
I rather take a chance with her look what the other side has to offer.

Gadabout Guinea
08-30-2008, 08:59 AM
...Isn't there something a little wrong in this thread? This is the VP we are talking about, and accusing her of not being "ready" to lead. That leads to the assumption that something would cause McCain to be unable to serve his term....


Hmmmm..? Gee I don't know, let's see, McCain is 72 and has had 3 bouts with cancer already.

Yeah, why you would have to let the idea that he might not live to be 76 while doing one of the most stressful jobs on the planet enter into the realm of possibility!

--125-3

DaleH
08-30-2008, 10:31 AM
But I want to see the country go in a different direction ...

Don't worry ... as a vote for change (meaning for the empty suit Obama) means you'll be taxed significantly more than you are already Eric. For YOU are 'rich' according to Obama-lama-ding-dongs tax plans. Last thing I want in office is a liberal socialist set on wealth redistribution. He'll give this country away to those who intend to take a free ride from society and be dependent on Govt services. He spent only 180 days as a U.S. Senator and yet feels he's the man for the highest office ... :eek: ?

A vote for that type of 'change' means you'll only have change left in YOUR pocket ...

Alas, as an independent ... I have no one to vote FOR and thus must hold my nose and vote AGAINST someone.

OceanRunner
08-30-2008, 10:39 AM
SENATOR vs. GOVERNOR EXPERIENCE
Senators legislate while governors manage. Experience in both is useful, but managing an organization and a real budget is clearly the more important skill set for presidency. For all their talk of experience, this seems to get lost in the shuffle.


THE PLAYERS
OBAMA – all other issues aside, this guy finally lost all credibility for me when Russet (on Meet the Press) asked if he would raise taxes on corporations and “the rich” even if it would result in reduced tax revenue: he said yes. Russet re-asked the question to be sure he understood, and Obama said, “Yes, because it’s a question of fairness”… So, in essence, Obama would rather reduce the economy and move more jobs overseas, just so he could say, “look guys, I increased their tax rate – I’m not sure why they stopped investing here…”

BIDEN – 8 months ago, he said – “Obama is inexperienced for the presidency”, now he says he’s learned enough during the campaigning process. i.e. Biden either has no idea what a president requires to be a successful leader, or he’s just a complete clown. Either way, he’s adding no value.

McCAIN – No one can argue against his commitment to the US, based on his past. He’s a bit to fiscally liberal for me, but he’s the better choice (based on above). And, I’m not sure I buy the media’s rhetoric that McCain is exactly like Bush, any more then I believe the rest of the infotainment they churn out.

PALIN – It’s obvious that she was chosen as a women, and it doesn’t hurt that she comes our most resource rich state (considering energy and commodity inflation is a key issue during this election). That said, her shorter experience seems to be less of what we need then if he chose Romney. (Like him or not, Romney’s business/financial experience would be great to have in the Whitehouse).


THE REAL ISSUE
All this campaigning and debating is pure pomp with no meat. If someone wants to get elected to the most powerful position of the most powerful country in the world, we should require them to present an executive summary on what they plan to do while in office, with a reasonable approximation on how they will do it. Then all the interviews and debates will be an exploration of: what they’ll do, rather then who they supposedly are and how many times they painted a fence or baked cookies when they were a kid…

But I digress ☺


OceanRunner – running from office

Onshore
08-30-2008, 11:08 AM
That makes a lot of sense to me Dale and Oc.Runner.

bdowning
08-30-2008, 12:56 PM
Well put OR, but what are the media going to do when you force them to comment only on isssues and matters of substance? Awfully "unfair" of you ! :brow

-bd

Soundking
08-30-2008, 01:25 PM
A handful of thoughts on Palin and Obamanomics.

Palin is a vintage McCain move. I have been into Johnny Mac for 10 years now. He's iconoclastic, fiscally conservative (contrary to his portrayal), socially liberal and my kind of guy. He's what I like to call a republican for the right reasons. Now, his biggest barrier is the pidgeon toe'd bible thumpers who are weary of his social liberalism. Again, something the republicans should be in favor of, but have gotten lost along the way.

Palin has been described as agressively pro-life. Now, this doesn't bother me at all because Roe v Wade ain't going anywhere. It will, however galvanize the snake charmers in the bible belt. If Obama is going to mobilize the worst in the liberals, The Mac needs to mobilize the worst in the conservatives. Palin can accomplish that.

Another thing that I like about Palin is that she is iconoclastic, not afraid to buck the establishment and executes what she truely believes in. A rare thing in politics. Even if you are a democrat, you have to respect a person for that.

Now, onto the relatively nebulous world of Obamanomics. Now, glean what you can from hope and change, but through his website you can actually get a deep dive on him. Simply, his economic policy makes that of Bush II look downright brilliant. A handful of bullet points on what Obama is proposing and what these will actually mean to the economy.

-Give tax credits to "patriotic companies" who create jobs in america as opposed to overseas. Now, in theory this sounds good. Offset the higher cost of labor in the US with a tax incentive making the shift less painful on the margin. Makes sense. Until you look at what a company has to do to qualify for these incentives. We're talking the most liberal talking points of the most agressive unions. French work weeks, obscene benefits ect... So, in reality, Obama is furthering the shift towards overseas labor and increasing the actual cost of unskilled labor at home.

-Generate more revenue without increasing the income tax for 95% of america. This is achieved by increasing the capital gains tax. Anyone with a basic level of economic understanding knows that this is economic suicide. Perhaps one of the greatest determinants of economic prosperity in wealthy nations, the CGT is the single greatest incentive for investment the government has. 90% of americans own bluechips in one form or another and over 50% of americans own stocks outside of a standard mutual fund bundle. The Obama's, of course, do not. According to their 2007 filing, the family has 1900 in liquid assets. That's less than what 40% of americans make in a week.

-Assist the lower through upper-middle classes by alliviating their tax burden. Is that why he wants to increase the Social Security Mandate level to 275k?

A brilliant orator, no question a good man, but frankly he is someone who hasn't a clue. He reminds me of an inside sales rep who is a brilliant talker but has yet to learn the product. He is all dancing when cornered. He might understand hardship, and he might even believe the fluffy crap he runs on but the fact is we are looking at Carter 2.0.

DonW
08-30-2008, 01:28 PM
Definitely a GILF! That said, the very idea that a person (man, woman or transgendered whatsit) who has been a governor for a mere two years and prior to that "mayor" of a mosquito infected suburb of Anchorage with fewer than 7,000 residents would be in charge of this country should McCain roll over and die in the next 4 years is NUTS! this choice says more about John McCain's judgement thatn her qualifications. he's a bit out there- possibly stayed too long in the Hanoi Hilton???? Plus she is a Creationist of all things! But she is a hell of a lot better looking than Hilary C. or Geraldine F.- neither of which i would even take fishing!

--username-deleted--
08-30-2008, 05:09 PM
this choice says more about John McCain's judgement thatn her qualifications. he's a bit out there- possibly stayed too long in the Hanoi Hilton???? Plus she is a Creationist of all things! But she is a hell of a lot better looking than Hilary C. or Geraldine F.- neither of which i would even take fishing!

His choice was very, very well thought out, I'm certain. This is not the sort of choice made lightly, or spur of the moment. Oh, and as far as his 'stay' at the Hanoi Hilton, he had no choice as to check out time. For better or worse, I truly believe that McCain loves this country and what it represents. He has fought for it, and paid dearly for it. I respect that. What has Obama done, but call for "change"? Change? Gee, that's original.

Now, I have zero interest in more of the same, but in terms of the lesser of two evils, I can't imagine anyone voting for Obama. That's all I'll say on the matter. For now anyway, until the typical MA lefty liberal cock-o-roaches come out of the woodwork. Then I may have to put on the work boots and get some stomping in. ;) :)

L

Soundking
08-30-2008, 05:39 PM
Oh, and as far as his 'stay' at the Hanoi Hilton, he had no choice as to check out time.

Actually my friend, he did. When they got word that Johnny's dad was an admiral, they offered him an early release. He blankly told his captors "I'm not leaving before every man that came in here before me leaves" and followed that with a hoisted finger. He was hooked up to car batteries for that one. Witness accounts from the HH said he was a slew of profanities the entire time, saying how badly he was going to beat them, begging them to take his handcuffs off and generally laughing at the people who were torturing him. Why? For the morale of his men.

--username-deleted--
08-30-2008, 06:47 PM
I knew that, actually, but thanks for the reminder, J. Makes my point about him willing to take it in the teeth for his country, and countrymen, even more impressive. He's far from perfect, but I'd vote for a man that would make that kind of sacrifice for his men a hundred times before one like BHO.

L

NMB
08-30-2008, 10:16 PM
beginning to sound like the old extremist wacko haters for bush have a new cause albeit a lost one.

JohnnyR
08-30-2008, 10:57 PM
Cite some facts Dale, your empty assertions are tiresome.

Obama's plan benefits all of us except for the very rich.

djpritchard
08-31-2008, 06:22 AM
Onshore - I'll second that motion. I agree with what DaleH and Ocean Runner had to say.

Beyond the war over in Iraq, I think we've really got to start putting major effort in to moving to alternate energy sources - and right now it doesn't make good business sense to work in that direction. It's going to take incentives to move in that direction. The business world is yet to move in that direction, as there needs to be a big investment in the infrastructure to support other energy sources.

All right - I'm getting off the soap box. Just realized I'm on a fishing board and not a political forum.

Hope everyone has a productive "rest of the season". I think the fat lady is warming up.

OceanRunner
08-31-2008, 07:00 AM
Cite some facts Dale, your empty assertions are tiresome.

Obama's plan benefits all of us except for the very rich.

Johnny,

Can you help me understand how Obama’s plan will benefit us all?

I’m not being flippant, I really would like to know.

FishHawk
08-31-2008, 07:50 AM
Being in the Senate is a lot different that being a governor. Look we have a governor running the country now and look at the mess we're in .
There are a lot more qualified Republican women that McCain could have picked. Like Elizabeth Dole or Kay Bailey Hutchinson. It's a gamble by McCain to win the Hillary voters. She appeals to the Christian right and is for big oil.
In an interview she said that she didn't know what the vp does.
The danger for the Dems is to underestimate her. They underestimated GW and he got elected. It should be a interesting election. You can't make this stuff up. Let the games begin. FishHawk

JohnnyR
08-31-2008, 08:38 AM
this is calculated from the non-partisan tax policy center.

honestly if other folks have facts to cite I would be open to hearing them:

http://alchemytoday.com/obamataxcut/

also:

http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/numbers/displayatab.cfm?Docid=1976&DocTypeID=7

DonW
08-31-2008, 08:39 AM
Sure she's a "babe" (well at least in the eyes of men older than her-me included) as evidenced by her status as Miss Wasilla and first runner up in Miss Alaska, sure she is an outdoors type person who hunts and fishes (and so appeals to the readers of this site), sure she was "mayor" of Wasilla Alaska with its 7,000 souls, sure she has a fine education (a BS or BA in "Sports Journalism"), sure she's a "hockey mom",

OK what distinguishes her from all the other Republicans to be on this ticket???

She is so unqualified as to raise serious questions about McCain's decision making ability . . . .

This is one of the most insane decisions ever made in the American national political arena:eek:

NMB
08-31-2008, 08:38 PM
AMEN donw. this is a sad day for mccaain. he's lost his moral compass.

JohnnyR
08-31-2008, 09:22 PM
Honestly I would have preferred Romney as a VP pick. Even though I have major disagreements with him I would trust him to run our economy in a smart way.

e-sea-e
08-31-2008, 10:33 PM
Dale and others:

you have bought the republican pitch line hook, line and sinker- "obama will raise your taxes". unfortunately, thats not true, unless you are in the top 3% of the country as far wages earned, at 250K plus per year. It might be what the republican party wants the average taxpayer to think, but its not true.

truth is, Obama's tax plan will cut taxes for the middle class far more than Mccain's, which gives breaks to businesses and those wealthy enough to have to deal with the Capital gains tax.

if you really think obama would raise all our taxes, read ths article. Its an unbiased look at what each candidate wants to do. I think you'll be suprised.

And dale, I'm nowhere near Obama's definition of rich (earners of more than 250K per year), although I sure wish i was. And if I was, a small tax raise wouldnt kill me, provided they dont use it to fund a war we never should have started.

WASHINGTON, Jun. 17, 2008 (AP Online delivered by Newstex) -- Make more than $250,000 a year? Watch out. Barack Obama wants to raise your income taxes. Social Security taxes, too.

Run a corporation? Lucky you. John McCain wants to cut your business taxes.

Those positions illustrate pieces of two vastly different approaches to the economy, an issue at the forefront of voters' minds given that the country is teetering on the brink of -- if not already in -- a recession as gas prices soar and layoffs rise amid a credit crisis and a housing slump.

e-sea-e edit: WHAT????????? brink of recession??? Bush/McCain say the economy is sound. stupid media.

Obama, the Democrat, seemingly has a traditional liberal outlook of taxing the rich more while having the government help people of more modest means through tax breaks. McCain, the Republican, advocates a classic conservative vision of cutting taxes -- many geared toward businesses -- to promote competition within a free-market system.

Neither plan is cheap.

The Tax Policy Center, a nonpartisan joint project of the Brookings Institution and the Urban Institute, gives a preliminary estimate that over the next decade, McCain's tax proposals would reduce federal revenues $3.7 trillion while Obama's cuts would amount to $2.7 trillion.

The center said the cuts would slice roughly 10 percent and 7 percent, respectively, of the federal revenues scheduled for collection under current law. But the center's estimate -- seemingly the first nonpartisan comprehensive comparison of the plans -- is incomplete because it doesn't account for health care tax proposals or, at least in McCain's case, consider how proposals to slash spending would offset some costs.

A crusader against wasteful spending, McCain asserts that he will veto bills that are too costly and cut the federal budget enough to make up for the costs of tax cuts and other proposals, although he has yet to show he can save enough to do it. At the same time, the Republican says that Congress must continue to fund an Iraq war that already has cost more than $500 billion.(#$119)

e-sea-e edit: WOW!!! Vote Mcacain and watch him have his cake, eat it, and share it with his buddies. He will do it, just dont ask him to explain HOW he'll do it. Thats way he gets to please everyone. And they say Obama dosent say how he'll do things

Obama, in turn, has proposed billions of dollars in spending to create jobs and pad government programs aimed at helping the less fortunate. He has said that the money will come from ending the Iraq war, slicing tax breaks for corporations, and raising taxes on high-income earners, efforts he says are intended to shift more of the tax burden to wealthy Americans.

e-sea-e edit: at least he can articlulate HOW he's going to do it, but darn it, he's going to help the less fortunate. what a jerk. I'd rather help the folks who make a ton of money every year, they gotta eat too. I mean, the nerve to expect those that make the most money to pay the most taxes

The two candidates have been haggling over the economy for more than a week now and seem to agree only on one point when it comes to it -- that they disagree on just about every other point.

"On tax policy, health care reform, trade, government spending, and a long list of other issues, we offer very different choices to the American people," McCain says at every turn.

Concurs Obama: "When it comes to the economy, John McCain and I have a fundamentally different vision of where to take the country."

Major changes to the tax code are at the heart of both candidates' sweeping economic plans, given that most cuts enacted since President Bush took office expire at the end of 2010 and the alternative minimum tax (AMT) is poised to hit much of the middle class -- two years into the next president's first term.

In 2001 and 2003 to jump-start a lackluster economy, Bush proposed and Congress passed a series of tax cuts -- including rate cuts for most taxpayers, increasing to $1,000 the per-child tax credit, relief from the so-called marriage penalty and estate tax cuts. The AMT was enacted in 1969 to make sure the wealthy paid at least some tax, but it now also threatens about 20 million additional taxpayers -- many in the middle class -- with levies averaging $2,000 if Congress doesn't annually renew a so-called patch to fix the problem.

Making permanent Bush's tax cuts and making sure the AMT keeps pace with inflation would have a direct cost of $3.6 trillion over the next 10 years, according to the Joint Committee on Taxation and Congressional Budget Office estimates, with government borrowing costs rising more than $800 million over the same period.

McCain, a four-term Arizona senator, twice voted against Bush's tax cuts, probably the significant domestic accomplishment of his presidency, but now embraces them and wants to permanently extend them for low-income and high-income people alike. He also long has said he would eliminate the AMT, and while some middle-income taxpayers would benefit, so would the wealthy, who no longer would have to pay it.

e-sea-e edit: why does he support them NOW???? Because he's running for president.

Obama, the first-term Illinois senator, wasn't in the Senate when they first passed, but he's willing to go along with permanently extending them except for their chief beneficiaries, the rich. Those who make more than $250,000 a year would see their taxes increase; Bush's tax cuts for them would be rolled back. Obama would extend and index the current AMT patch.

In the vein of taxing the rich more, Obama also supports making some higher wage-earners pay Social Security taxes on more of their income. He has called for higher payroll taxes on wage-earners making more than $250,000 annually, a step that would affect the wealthiest 3 percent of Americans.

e-sea-e edit: Pardon me if I shed no tears over this

The 6.2 percent payroll tax is now applied to all wages up to $102,000 a year, which covers the entire amount for most Americans. Under Obama's plan, the tax would not apply to wages between that amount and $250,000. But Obama has said all annual salaries above the quarter-million-dollar amount would be taxed under his plan.


Conversely, McCain has ruled out higher payroll taxes for now -- an adviser says that McCain would not consider an increase "under any imaginable circumstance" -- but the Republican has said he would consider "almost anything" as part of a compromise to save the senior citizens' program.

e-sea-e edit "read my lips...no new taxes"..unless there are new taxes. thats called wiggle room, folks.

Both want to slice the estate tax, McCain more so than Obama.

The estate tax is phasing out and is completely eliminated for 2010, but it snaps back to 2001 levels -- a 55 percent top rate with the first $675,000 exempt -- at the end of that year. McCain wants a 15 percent rate, and a $5 million exemption, while Obama advocates a 45 percent rate and a $3.5 million exemption.

Overall, the Tax Policy Center said people with very high incomes would benefit the most under McCain's proposal, while low- and middle-income taxpayers would see larger tax breaks under Obama's plan and wealthy taxpayers would see their taxes increase.

esea-e edit: but but but but but thats not what the republicans say, they wouldnt lie to us..Oh wait, thats right, we're still looking for the weapon of mass destrcution in iraq.. never mind.

Seeking to spur growth, McCain proposes cutting the maximum corporate income tax rate from 35 percent to 25 percent, and he would allow businesses to immediately deduct the full cost of capital business equipment in one swoop, instead of gradually over several years.

McCain also wants to increase the $3,500 income-tax exemption for dependents by $500 each year beginning in 2010 until it reaches $7,000.

Among Obama's other proposals: raising the tax on capital gains and qualified dividends. However, Obama has raised the possibility of deferring some of his tax hikes on the wealthy given the ailing economy.

e-sea-e edit: and this effects who? Why, the rich of course. the nerve making them pay the most just because they earn the most.

To help others, Obama has offered a series of tax breaks, including eliminating the income tax for senior citizens who make less than $50,000 a year and giving a $1,000 income tax credit for families with income of between $8,000 and $75,000; individuals would receive half that amount. Obama also proposes a universal mortgage credit that would allow people who don't itemize their taxes to be eligible for a 10 percent tax credit of their mortgage interest up to $800.

e-sea-e edit: NO taxes for seniors making less than 50K? Thats my parents. why on earth would I vote for a guy who wants to do that?


END OF ARTICLE

McCcain's plan is thew same bill of goods sold by regan and every republican since 1980: Trickle down ecomonics. It dosent work, it wont work, thats why George bush the first called it "voodoo economics when he campaigned against regan in the 1980 primaries. At least he didnt think it work untill he was on the 1980 presidential rticket..then they worked just fine.

so, if you make more than 250K, vote for McCain. the other 97% of us will vote for obama.

I found this on McCain's website, it is so wrong whoever put it on his website shouls be arrested for fraud:

"John McCain's Lexington Project will address the rising costs of energy that are hurting small businesses. He strongly supports increased domestic exploration of oil and natural gas. This will send a strong signal to oil markets that future supplies will be more plentiful, countering the rise in oil prices. The market for natural gas is less internationally integrated than that of oil - increased domestic production will lower the cost of this key energy source."

this statement is a joke. the US holds 3% of the worlds oil. even if they explored and found 10%, and ALL of it was out on the world market at once, the price of oil would drop slightly in the very short term, a few days maybe, and then return to what it was before. This staement is pandering at its finest.

Now, you may not agree with my views, but at least I have been to McCain's website and done other research regarding his positions so I can make an informed chioce. Please do the same before you call me bad names.

twofinbluna
09-01-2008, 01:19 AM
Chicago Sun Times
Tax plan face off: Obama vs. McCain
WHITE HOUSE RACE | Whoever wins, you'll probably pay less

The rich would pay more under Barack Obama's tax plan, and the poor and middle-class would pay less, a nonpartisan analysis finds. Under John McCain's plan, the rich would pay much less than they do now, the poor and middle-class would pay a bit less, and the federal deficit would grow, the study found.

Each individual's tax situation is different, so it's hard to say for sure how much more or less you would pay under the presidential candidates' ever-evolving tax proposals.

And at this point that's all they are -- proposals that may or may not get through Congress. They don't take into account wars, whether the president will sign an expensive social program into law, or the world economy.

With those caveats, here are highlights of how the candidates' proposals to change the tax code would impact you:

Obama says he would hike several taxes on people making more than $250,000, including the amount they pay on capital gains. Currently, the top income tax rate is 35 percent. Under Obama, that would go back up to 39 percent. Obama's staff told the Urban-Brookings Tax Policy Center he would raise the rates for people in the top two brackets -- about 2.5 million filers out of 100 million-plus. People in those high tax brackets would see the tax rate on their capital gains hiked from the current 15 percent to 20-28 percent.

Obama started his campaign saying his plans would not increase taxes for people earning less than $250,000. But he found himself in an apparent contradiction by saying he would tax all income to fund Social Security, not just income up to $102,000, as is now the case. So now, Obama's plan calls for no Social Security tax on income between $102,000 and $250,000, but all income above $250,000 would be taxed for Social Security.

The 95 percent-plus of the American population that earns less than $250,000 would see the following tax breaks: A $500-per-worker tax credit for people who earn less than $150,000 and do not itemize, and a $4,000 credit per child in college. Seniors who earn less than $50,000 would pay no income tax.

The Tax Policy Center notes seniors could end up paying more if corporations respond to Obama's proposed increase in the corporate tax rate by passing those costs along to consumers.

McCain would make permanent most of the tax cuts President Bush has already enacted, including those that benefit the middle class, such as elimination of the marriage penalty and the increase in child credits. He would also keep cuts that benefit the wealthy, such as the elimination of the highest tax brackets. Obama would keep the breaks for the middle class but not the ones for the wealthy.

McCain would also double the dependent exemption from $3,500 to $7,000, benefitting big families of all incomes.

Obama would leave the top corporate tax rate at 35 percent. McCain would cut it to 25 percent.

The two candidates differ widely in their approach to the estate tax, which the Republicans call the "death tax." McCain would set it at 15 percent for estates above $5 million. Obama would set it at 45 percent for estates above $3.5 million.

Both candidates favor extending a "patch" that would keep the Alternative Minimum Tax from encroaching on middle-income families.

Largely because his tax proposals would leave tax breaks for the wealthy in place, McCain's plan would cost the U.S. Treasury more than Obama's, the Tax Policy Center found.

The precise cost depends on whether you assume the current tax breaks would be renewed or would expire.

Assuming they would have been renewed anyway, Obama's plan would bring in an additional $700 billion in taxes over the next 10 years, while McCain's would cost the Treasury $600 billion. Assuming legislators would have let the tax breaks expire, Obama's plan would cost the U.S. Treasury $2.7 trillion and McCain's $3.7 trillion.

The center uses various assumptions both campaigns quarrel with. Each campaign also accuses the other of not being honest with the numbers.

"Obama raises taxes in a way that's detrimental to the economy," said McCain adviser Douglas Holtz-Eakin. "The John McCain plan is a jobs-first plan that keeps small businesses in the game."

Obama's Brian Deese said the $600 million deficit the study pro- jects McCain's plan would create "doesn't count impact of current Iraq war spending. If McCain's plan drives the deficit up and puts upward pressure on interest rates, that increases costs for families and could force really Draconian, across-the-board spending cuts."

Found at: http://www.suntimes.com/news/politics/obama/1031268,CST-NWS-tax30.article

END OF ARTICLE
-----------------------------------------------------------

I found that article to be less biased than the one E-Sea posted, which to me seemed clearly anti-Mcain. This one appears more down the middle. I highlighted the part of the article I think that people need to remember. These guys are both saying what people want to hear and if you think that all these little details will be followed through on, you are having way too much faith in both candidates.

And by the way, since when was the Brookings Institute (or anything it is involved with) "non partisan".... last I checked they were a liberal think tank....

twofinbluna
09-01-2008, 03:08 AM
Couple other articles I came across that I thought were worth posting...

- While this is admittedly from someone who appears to be very much in favor of McCain for president, if what he says is true it raises some important issues with Obama's plan:

An argument against Obama's tax plan (http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0708/11670.html)

- And this is also from someone who may not necessariuly be in support of McCain, but is clearly not for Obama...but again, he seems to make some valid points so wanted to post:

Obama's Tax Plan Is Really a Welfare Plan (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB121910303529751345.html?mod=googlenews_wsj)

abner98
09-01-2008, 05:18 AM
JohnnyR-- in my case, the results for the site you recommended do not match the taxpolicy website numbers. Bogus!

That illustrates the difficulty in attempting to be an "educated voter". Half-truths and manipulations are the rule. That's what gets people elected these days.*Even some posters right here -- obviously thoughtful, intense and smart -- are jerking their knees in tune with party lines. Just ask yourself what you thought at first about the war in Iraq and what the USA wound up with before you follow either of these party leaders.

Onshore
09-01-2008, 06:38 AM
JohnnyR--
Just ask yourself what you thought at first about the war in Iraq and what the USA wound up with before you follow either of these party leaders.

The only problem with that strategy is that one of those party leaders is going to be leading this country come 2009 and the only option we have is to choose the one who will do less to screw it up. Voting for neither is not the answer, IMHO.

SteepBank
09-01-2008, 08:15 AM
For all the bluster...democrats will vote for a democrat..republicans will vote for a republican and independants will usually vote republican..vote for who you think will do the job..you wont change anyones mind on a fishing forum I can tell you that much

framer
09-01-2008, 08:36 AM
The V.P. debates should put an end to this discussion about Palin;

The Republican strategy for sure will be to have her bait Biden into making a condescending comeback.

This isn't American Idol, but I'm afraid for much of the country politics has been
boiled down to the non-essentials.

There is plenty of honest and accurate reporting on all the candidates statements and positions; We all know there is a lot of the opposte as well.

It's pretty hard to beat intelligence, problem solving skills, experience, ability and desire to work with those from the other party, integrity, and independence from big special interest groups.

Can we find and elect these two people?

spitfisher
09-01-2008, 08:40 AM
to those that believe Obama won't raise taxes....(you too have drank the koolaid) Obama has stated that he will illiminate the bush tax rebates.

That too me is raising taxes right from the git go. Capital gains tax is also on the Obama adgenda, along with numerous others.

But let us wait and see if he is even elected. I will go on record that he will fail miserable the executing some of his vision and promises- not for the lack of trying though.

bertberg
09-01-2008, 09:10 AM
We may end up having a president who believes creationism should be discussed in schools. Definitely sounds like the way to go! (#$119)

"'Creation science' enters the race," Anchorage Daily News, October 27, 2006
http://www.moveon.org/r?r=17737&id=13661-8316556-_70tZwx&t=3

foulhook
09-01-2008, 09:22 AM
Sometimes a picture is worth a thousand words. Pretty easy decision:

http://www.myfishpix.com/gallery/data/500/obama-somali-muslim-garb.jpg
http://www.myfishpix.com/gallery/data/500/untitled24.jpg

framer
09-01-2008, 09:42 AM
Endless war or peace?

Tarpon41
09-01-2008, 10:42 AM
He was looking for his roots...most "sperm donor" children who have never seen the "donor" sometime in their life seek what they did not have...what they find is almost always( about 48 out of 50) not what they are looking for...IMHO based upon professional, albeit small numbers about 50, experience.
He is a Harvard JD and editor in chief LR and published notes and Senator from Illinois a state rich in presidential orators and speech...and who was tutored by the Mayor of Chicago in the ways of american politics beyond s. halsted and stoney island....

Does this country need an admiral's son who was at the botton of his class who was shot down in a war nearly forty years ago by a country whose presence, today, is most all of the techy fishing garments and sport garments sold by columbia bass pro cabelas et al... made in Viet Nam...not for me... but then I am now and always have been a Democrat...notwithstanding Indiana's near GOP presidential absolute...it must be my roots which maintains my political direction, Fall River, Mass:)

soundownsam
09-01-2008, 02:35 PM
How is the conservative base going to feel about Palin's pregnant teenage daughter?

sam

eponymous
09-01-2008, 03:30 PM
this is calculated from the non-partisan tax policy center.

honestly if other folks have facts to cite I would be open to hearing them:

http://alchemytoday.com/obamataxcut/

also:

http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/numbers/displayatab.cfm?Docid=1976&DocTypeID=7

John:

You should link to alchemytoday.com and see if this is really and "non-partisan tax policy center". The link was filled with a bunch of info from the left side of the spectrum. There is a whole lotta crisscrossing websites that may or may not be legit.

Just sayin'.

DonW
09-01-2008, 06:56 PM
I could not believe my eyes and ears- yesterday on a segment on TV McCain specifically listed Ms. Palin's experience in the PTA as one of her qualifications to be VP (or President)! I am not making this up.

fly
09-01-2008, 06:56 PM
How was all your fishing this weekend?

I got out a little in NY and POSTED A REPORT on this FISHING WEBSITE

mendy
09-01-2008, 07:05 PM
Sometimes a picture is worth a thousand words. Pretty easy decision:

http://www.myfishpix.com/gallery/data/500/obama-somali-muslim-garb.jpg
http://www.myfishpix.com/gallery/data/500/untitled24.jpg

Nice. This "flyboy" was a great choice. :eek:

http://media.collegepublisher.com/media/paper410/stills/739c460f.jpg

The Republicans have spent the last 8 years making this great country a little less great. We need a smart leader who can inspire us all, not just the rich. McCain will just be another 4 years of the same: screwing the middle class and helping the rich get richer. Flawed domestic policy and embarrassing foreign policy that has done nothing but undermine our international authority. A total joke.

And just to stave off the inevitable reply from JJ, even though I occasionally sport a courderoy blazer (without elbow patches) I am a registered independent.

DonW
09-01-2008, 07:48 PM
How was all your fishing this weekend?

I got out a little in NY and POSTED A REPORT on this FISHING WEBSITE

--125-3



Wow quite a guy . . ., again, don't open the thread that clearly is non fishing if it offends you somehow . . .

FireFly
09-01-2008, 08:40 PM
As an independent I was not too excited to vote this year until Palin was announced and I'll be going for McCain this time around rather than the other side, who has put forth one of the best orators in recent memory who has done absolutely nothing in his very limited political career unless you include his experience as a community organizer. On paper I'm more qualified than BO to be POTUS.

BO's good buddy Devil Patrick ran a campaign on Change and look where the commonwealth is today. Nothing has changed.

mendy
09-01-2008, 08:56 PM
Was it Palin's experience as a PTA Hockey Mom or her less than two years as governor of one of our least populous states that made the decision for you? McCain was a maverick, now he's just another big business/christian right prop. And Palin put you over the edge? :confused:

Barack has made something of HIMSELF. No rich trophy wife supporting him. No past president as his daddy. President of Harvard Law Review. Community organizer. Multi-term state senator. US Senator serving on the Foreign Relations Committee. Opposed the Iraq mess. Smart. Inspiring. A real LEADER.

The McCain Mess only gets worse. Should be an interesting couple months.

FireFly
09-01-2008, 09:15 PM
She seems to have more experience than BO and she's only running for Vp. When my vote is cast it will be for POTUS and not for Vp although each candidates brings someone to the party. Now if we compare credentials of BO to McCain then the debate is over. But if you want to brag about how eloquent a speaker BO is then be my guest. ;) He sounds an awful lot like Devil Patrick who has not followed through with one of his campaign promises other than raising taxes for MA residents and hurting MA businesses.

Was it Palin's experience as a PTA Hockey Mom or her less than two years as governor of one of our least populous states that made the decision for you? McCain was a maverick, now he's just another big business/christian right prop. And Palin put you over the edge? :confused:

Barack has made something of HIMSELF. No rich trophy wife supporting him. No past president as his daddy. President of Harvard Law Review. Community organizer. Multi-term state senator. US Senator serving on the Foreign Relations Committee. Opposed the Iraq mess. Smart. Inspiring. A real LEADER.

The McCain Mess only gets worse. Should be an interesting couple months.

twofinbluna
09-02-2008, 12:28 AM
Again, if Obama was smart he would not try and overplay this 'Palin is inexperienced' card because it only brings more attention on his own lack of experience. Its pretty clear that Palin does not have very much political experience, but neither does Obama. I do not think he will be winning many votes by ripping on the republican VP candidate, but may turn people away.

As Mendy said, it should be an interesting few months regardless of who has what experience. Lets just hope that no matter who wins, we dont have the losing side being a pain in the butt right off the bat. Whoever wins, wins, then we need to move on and not talk about the 2012 elections for at least a couple years! I think probably everyone can agree that this 2008 election has been going on for way too long, and we still have a while to go. The longer it takes the more I just want to get it the heck over with!

Hopefully we can all get some decent weather before long so we do not have to sit onshore partaking in threads like this on a fishing site!

SteepBank
09-02-2008, 07:12 AM
She seems to have more experience than BO and she's only running for Vp. When my vote is cast it will be for POTUS and not for Vp although each candidates brings someone to the party. Now if we compare credentials of BO to McCain then the debate is over. But if you want to brag about how eloquent a speaker BO is then be my guest. ;) He sounds an awful lot like Devil Patrick who has not followed through with one of his campaign promises other than raising taxes for MA residents and hurting MA businesses.


what does deval patrick and obama have to do with one another? Oh I get it....nice point

FireFly
09-02-2008, 08:54 AM
2 candidates who promised a world of change during their campaign and delivered nothing.

SteepBank
09-02-2008, 09:45 AM
Obama hasnt even been voted in yet so its premature to say he didnt deliver anything I think..

Gadabout Guinea
09-02-2008, 09:55 AM
"Find the cost of freedom, buried in the ground
Mother earth will swallow you, lay your body down..."

Lyrics from another sad time and pointless war that so many seem to have forgotten!

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e345/cervellibei/Coffins-763225.jpg



I guess it's ok for some to think about keeping your taxes from going up as the primary factor in choosing a leader?
After all, it is a Free Country, thanks to these guys!

Let's talk about fishing!

sue m
09-02-2008, 10:14 AM
The McCain Mess only gets worse. Should be an interesting couple months.

Agree with Mendy.

Palin favors mandatory teaching of creationism in public schools, opposes
abortion rights in the case of rape and incest, disbelieves manmade
causes for global warming, had an ad on her website for the indicted Stevens until she was selected by McCain. zero foreign policy experience. Under
investigation for abuse of power charges in dismissing a public safety official who wouldn't fire her brother-in-law.

McCain is 72 and a former cancer survivor. Does anyone really want her as President by default.

She does have have a beauty pageant background though.

You know the cowardly media won't go after her at all.
When was the last time we heard about "The Keating Five"? Palin will get the same free pass as McCain from everyone except Keith Olbermann. Thank God for Fox news "fair and balanced news" as they say.:rolleyes:

Slamdance
09-02-2008, 10:19 AM
http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e345/cervellibei/Coffins-763225.jpg
]

Remember photos like that? You used to see them all the time, before the Bush administration stopped allowing them to be shown to the American people who elected him.

If I were Gadabout Guinea, I'd start looking for the black helicopters to show up.

Onshore
09-02-2008, 10:20 AM
[quote=mendy;246758]Was it Palin's experience as a PTA Hockey Mom or her less than two years as governor of one of our least populous states that made the decision for you? McCain was a maverick, now he's just another big business/christian right prop. And Palin put you over the edge? quote]

Well, Mendy, she has more experience as a governor than the less than 200 days BO has as a senator. All he ever did in the senate was cast a vote a time or two while she was administrating to the governmental needs of a state and cleaning up it's corruption.

Onshore
09-02-2008, 10:23 AM
McCain is 72 and a former cancer survivor. Does anyone really want her as President by default. Certainly, rather than BO or Biden

You know the cowardly media won't go after her at all. And, wouldn't that be refreshing.

Onshore
09-02-2008, 10:35 AM
[quote=Slamdance;246807]Remember photos like that? You used to see them all the time, before the Bush administration stopped allowing them to be shown to the American people who elected him. quote]

This has been a relatively small war as compared to WW II when 416,800 of our military died.

Soundking
09-02-2008, 10:41 AM
Talking past the standard liberal talking points of "just for the rich" and the standard conservative talking points of "free market". Moving beyond "end the war!" and "we made this mess, now we've got to fix it". Stepping through "hope" and "my friends" there is a topic here that is not being adressed.

There is much talk about "fairness" and other fuzzy words in this campaign. A nation clearly angered and hurt by the past 8 years. One thing we can all agree on is the fact that history will not be kind to Bush II. As a libertarian, I have a special kind of hatred for him. As someone who believes in personal direction and self mastery I harbor and equally special kind of hatred for "fairness". This country has been on a slippery slope with the Soccer Momming and Pussification of America. Little league games are played for "fun" with no score kept. Academic institutions discourage outside the box thinking. 10 year old boys are being expelled from schools for fighting. Men are not taking accountability for their children. Everywhere we look, it seems that this country is falling farther and farther into the depths of mediocrity. You know why? Because people are being conditioned to think it's ok to accept less than their best. Whatever happened to the glorious american zeal of directly competing with someone, winning and being able to decisively prove that you are better than another? Where is the edge of this nation? What happened to the rugged individualism, the **** you I'm better than you and can prove it mentality that this country was based around? It has been replaced by people so damn frighted of offending people they can't think logically.

As someone who has a posthumous Medal of Honor in his bedroom, I look at the generation two before mine with great admiration. When I think about America, that's what I think about. Those men and women. FDR's social programs didn't end the depression; people willing to endure, unify and work harder than ever did. You ever talk to a WWII vet and thank them? We all know what they say, they don't want thanks, they were just doing their job. Now, if someone isn't coddled and babied their fragile psyche's are wrecked and they take any excuse available. I don't know what party line that is, but I do know that I am deeply concerned about the Pussification of America. I do know that John McCain is a bona-fide American Hero and regardless of what anyone thinks of his political agenda he deserves our respect and recognition. War is a concept to Obama, it is an actuality to McCain. I think this is something we should all be cognizant of before we label McCain a hawk or post pictures comparing his service record to that of Bush II.

Tarpon41
09-02-2008, 11:04 AM
How was all your fishing this weekend?

I got out a little in NY and POSTED A REPORT on this FISHING WEBSITE

I went with a crony to southwestern indiana strip pits...we caught 10 largeM...with gulp plastics....saw 4 stars and bars rebel flags hanging from flag poles on the way...a disrespect for the 25,000 Hoosiers who died preserving the Union...fishing was fun though...

sea-run
09-02-2008, 11:12 AM
As fishermen, everyone here really ought to look at Palin's stance on the proposed Alaska Pebble mine. I was very surprised to see her come out in favor of the project, given her fishing history, and the enormous potential the proposed mine has to destroy the Bristol Bay salmon fishery.

I agree with Mark though - masterful bit of stagecraft by the republicans.

That is interesting alright. Also of note, she tried to pass a law prohibiting all forms of birth control in Alaska - including its use by married couples - and is against abortion for any reason what-so-ever. Heard both of these on NPR radio, haven't seen it in print anywhere.

RJ
09-02-2008, 12:15 PM
[quote=Slamdance;246807]Remember photos like that? You used to see them all the time, before the Bush administration stopped allowing them to be shown to the American people who elected him. quote]

For the record Slamdance - It was the judgement of the Clinton Administration to stop the photographing of caskets arriving with our honored dead.

Your view is an urban ledgend. You have been misled.

I wonder why you posted them in a thread that is discussing the VP choice for our up coming national election?

Bit of a reach around, don't you think.

Do you aprove of the personal attacks against Gov. Sarah Palin?

Obama doesn't. In his request for those being carried away in that venue to cease, he stated that sew was qualified to be the Vice President.

The silly attacks by the way caused a jump in donations for John Mc Cain that reached 10 million dollars in the first three days after her introduction.

Slamdance
09-02-2008, 12:44 PM
Sorry RJ, but you may be the one drinking the Koolaid. In RJ form, here is a little cut & paste for you

Photographs of returning military dead were permitted during Vietnam, but a ban was instated during the 1991 Gulf War (Bush Administration), according to Jones' office. The military has granted exceptions on rare occasions, such as the 1996 return of the bodies of Commerce Secretary Ron Brown and other Americans killed in a plane crash in Croatia.

But since the start of the war in Afghanistan in 2001, the Defense Department has specifically prohibited photographs of returning war dead. A policy updated in 2003 states: "There will be no arrival ceremonies for, or media coverage of, deceased military personnel returning or departing from Ramstein Air Base or Dover Air Force Base." Military officials have defended the rule by saying it is in place out of respect to service members and their loved ones.

In the five years of the Iraq war, during which more than 4,100 U.S. troops have died, photos of military caskets have leaked out on at least three occasions.

In 2004, a defense contractor named Tami Silicio snapped a photo of flag-draped coffins at the Kuwait International Airport and provided it to The Seattle Times, which published the picture on its front page.

Also in 2004, Russ Kick of the The Memory Hole Web site published more than 300 photos of returning war dead he obtained through a Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) request, which the Pentagon later said was granted by mistake.

In 2005, University of Delaware professor Ralph Begleiter released more than 700 photos by military photographers showing ceremonies honoring returning military dead. Begleiter obtained the images through a FOIA request and a lawsuit.

soundownsam
09-02-2008, 02:30 PM
[QUOTE=RJ;246827
Do you aprove of the personal attacks against Gov. Sarah Palin?

[/QUOTE]

Bringing up the issue of her pregnant teen daughter is not a personal attack, its a relevant discussion of a policy stance. Sarah Palin was added to the ticket because of her stance on abortion, birth control etc.. She has championed policies that say we should remove sex ed from school, make birth control hard to get if not illegal and that family and faith will help reduce teen birth rates and unwanted pregnancies. If she can't make that policy work under her own roof the I would say it is very relevant.


Sam

RJ
09-02-2008, 02:43 PM
Sorry Steve, I confused it with the pictures of dead American Soldiers being dragged thru the streets of Mogodishu when Clinton was president.

Why did you choose to include the casket pictures in a Vice President selection thread that had nothing to do with President Bush?

If my memory is correct John Mc Cain was one of the senator's who voted to allow pictures of arriving caskets to be shown.

Are you using the Bush brush to paint John Mc Cain with the same brush?

JohnnyR
09-02-2008, 03:05 PM
Onshore - Barack has been in the senate since 2004. Palin has been a governor for less than two years. I'm not sure if you're being purposefully misleading or if you just have your facts mixed up. Should we only count Palin's days as governor as equal to the number of days the state legislature was in session? Of course not, there is a lot of work to be done as a governor when the legislature isn't in session, just like there is as a Senator.

Also I thought it was kind of interesting that Barack won his Illinois senate race with ~655,000+ people voting for him, (almost as many people as there are in the entire state of Alaska). Sarah Palin became Alaska's governor with just under 115,00 voting for her.

All that aside, there are a lot of talented Republicans and Republican women out there. In theory McCain could have asked someone like Olympia Snowe of Maine to join him. She is a great senator with a proven track record and respect from both sides of the aisle. (She is also great on fisheries issues btw). I would have applauded a choice like that.

The choice of Palin just seems really weak to the point where I'm not sure McCain really even wants to win the election. (ok back to fishing now for me)

Mark Cahill
09-02-2008, 03:22 PM
Probably time for this thread to die...as with topics we avoid at Thanksgiving Dinner, Forum Threads about politics or religion are generally bound for disaster.

We haven't gone that far yet, but I sense it coming.

FireFly
09-02-2008, 03:32 PM
Yup, it's just around the corner. Funny how political discussions bring out the worst in people and never the best.

As an independent I've come to the conclusion that our founders did a great job getting the country on the right track but since then politicians have done everything possible to destroy it. I don't say that in a paranoid sort of way, I just don't believe anyone from either party will ever bring the change we need. There is too much at stake for them to go with the flow and rake in the dough.

OceanRunner
09-02-2008, 05:17 PM
How is the conservative base going to feel about Palin's pregnant teenage daughter?

sam


That’s easy. The conservative POV is always that it’s not the government’s business to interfere with an individual’s rights.

On the other hand, if you mean the “Religious Right” – the extreme liberal wing of the Republican Party, I’m sure they’ll have lots to say. It’s always great to hear one person dictate how another should manage their personal situation, and then have the further audacity to tell a completely unrelated group of people how they get to pay for it.

I’m truly amazed at how Liberals want individuals to relinquish as much freedom and rights as possible to further empower the government. It seems so odd in a country founded on the notion that freedom from the tyranny of another government that openly refused to recognize the rights or contributions of the individuals that supported it from abroad.

Exactly why do Liberals want to un-revolutionize the US and reverse the Boston Tea Party?


. . . I probably took Sam’s point a bit too far . . .

I think I need to get back to the Tuna ☺

Chris

OceanRunner
09-02-2008, 05:33 PM
...I've come to the conclusion that our founders did a great job getting the country on the right track but since then politicians have done everything possible to destroy it. I don't say that in a paranoid sort of way, I just don't believe anyone from either party will ever bring the change we need. There is too much at stake for them to go with the flow and rake in the dough...


Well said!

It would be great if all Americans could agree on one thing when it comes to elections: no mater how good their promises sound, NEVER vote for anyone who doesn’t outline what they plan to do and how they plan to do it – with substantive budgeting facts.

In the end, huge government (like a small business) has to run an organized budget, which means clear and easy to understand at an executive level – we should require this clarity from our government, and vote for people who promise to cut appropriately, rather then vote for people who promise to spend endlessly.


Alright, alright, back to the fishing ☺

--username-deleted--
09-02-2008, 07:09 PM
Nice. This "flyboy" was a great choice. :eek:

http://media.collegepublisher.com/media/paper410/stills/739c460f.jpg

The Republicans have spent the last 8 years making this great country a little less great. We need a smart leader who can inspire us all, not just the rich. McCain will just be another 4 years of the same: screwing the middle class and helping the rich get richer. Flawed domestic policy and embarrassing foreign policy that has done nothing but undermine our international authority. A total joke.

And just to stave off the inevitable reply from JJ, even though I occasionally sport a courderoy blazer (without elbow patches) I am a registered independent.

Come on John, comparing the two as soldiers on equal footing is hardly a fair comparison. In fact, it's a ridiculousimisism (pardon my use of a Bush-like term). ;)

L

--username-deleted--
09-02-2008, 07:24 PM
Was it Palin's experience as a PTA Hockey Mom or her less than two years as governor of one of our least populous states that made the decision for you? McCain was a maverick, now he's just another big business/christian right prop. And Palin put you over the edge? :confused:

Barack has made something of HIMSELF. No rich trophy wife supporting him. No past president as his daddy. President of Harvard Law Review. Community organizer. Multi-term state senator. US Senator serving on the Foreign Relations Committee. Opposed the Iraq mess. Smart. Inspiring. A real LEADER.

The McCain Mess only gets worse. Should be an interesting couple months.

There is no such thing as a 'President of Law Review'. They have an editor.

As far as the Iraq 'mess', it's funny that the liberals cry bloody freaking murder when things are going badly, but are strangely silent when things get better. Why is that? The US military presence in Iraq continues to improve things,if slowly, and I believe we will be handing their country back to them in much better shape than it was to head into the future. It wasn't pretty-- far from it in fact, but we need people that can make the tough decisions, not one that will roll over or fold in the face of an incredibly difficult position. I am not saying I am for invading every third world cesspool that disagrees with our way of life or our foreign policy, but dealing with terrorists and goobermints that support same in general is not a decision we can afford to make. I mean, really. He wants to debate these people? This ain't moot court at Harvard. This is real life. Our way of life. These kinds of people want us dead. They want our way of life to cease as we know it. These are the kinds of people who would behead men on video for being American, or Jewish, or Christian, and no other reason. These are the kinds of people who flew two jets into the WTC. Hussein would try to play 'let's make a deal' with these folks? They want us dead. To me, dealing with these animals is obscene. They need to be hunted down and exterminated, for the good of humanity as a whole. And yeah, I believe that.

I believe that we have not seen the end of terrorism in this country. Far from it. I want a leader at the helm who knows what it takes to protect our country, and confront our enemies, and take it to them before they take it to us, if need be. That all said, I am not the hawk I may appear to be, and have issues with the way the Iraq has been handled from the start, but I think McCain is our best chance in getting through it, getting what we need to get accomplished done, and then bail the hell out of there.

My opinion only. And worth what you paid for it! ;)

L

gf2020
09-02-2008, 07:35 PM
Probably time for this thread to die...as with topics we avoid at Thanksgiving Dinner, Forum Threads about politics or religion are generally bound for disaster.




I'm with you, Mark! I never discuss those topics PLUS relationships at family gatherings.

I keep checking this thread hoping there are some new pictures of Governor Palin posted. I guess this Photoshop special will have to suffice!

http://i220.photobucket.com/albums/dd94/bluffman2/mmmm.jpg

mendy
09-02-2008, 07:39 PM
There is no such thing as a 'President of Law Review'. They have an editor.

As far as the Iraq 'mess', it's funny that the liberals cry bloody freaking murder when things are going badly, but are strangely silent when things get better. Why is that?

L

I love ya Leighton but I want to clear up one thing: I use the term "Iraq mess" not in terms of the current situation (believe me, I am thrilled that things seem to be better there now) but rather as the fact that we are there at all. The abhorrent decision to attack Iraq in the first place is what I have issue with. It has distracted the military from pursuing other more relevant threats, given other powers such as Russia to attack other soveriegn nations (Georgia) and hobbled our diplomatic relationships with many other nations.

mendy
09-02-2008, 07:40 PM
Come on John, comparing the two as soldiers on equal footing is hardly a fair comparison. In fact, it's a ridiculousimisism (pardon my use of a Bush-like term). ;)

L

Agreed. I used that photo to point out the utter absurdity of the previous poster's choice of photos as a justification for choosing our next president.

--username-deleted--
09-02-2008, 07:49 PM
Agreed. I used that photo to point out the utter absurdity of the previous poster's choice of photos as a justification for choosing our next president.

Gotcha', John. Our stances are probably closer to one another than it appears, save for which candidate will best serve our country. But then that's a small part of what makes our country so grand: having the ability to disagree and choose our leaders as we see fit, and with our respective consciences.

Cheers, bud.

L

bigblue
09-03-2008, 08:18 AM
Bringing up the issue of her pregnant teen daughter is not a personal attack, its a relevant discussion of a policy stance. Sarah Palin was added to the ticket because of her stance on abortion, birth control etc.. She has championed policies that say we should remove sex ed from school, make birth control hard to get if not illegal and that family and faith will help reduce teen birth rates and unwanted pregnancies. If she can't make that policy work under her own roof the I would say it is very relevant.


Sam

Heaven help us if she gets in the White House.... (#$119)

SteepBank
09-03-2008, 09:07 AM
moderators...is this a record for number of hits? just wondering before it gets locked

Ray
09-03-2008, 09:40 AM
not close, but getting there.

Maybe this is a sign of the quality of our inshore fisheries. Shouldn't there be a ton of Bluefin, Bonito, and FA threads going right now with a ton of activity :confused:

Mark Cahill
09-03-2008, 10:49 AM
I'd have to look at the database but I know my boat sinking thread has 21,793 views which if not a record is probably close.

SteepBank
09-03-2008, 10:50 AM
that was a good post (boat sinking) and probably may have saved a few lives...thats a ton of hits!

Spiral
09-03-2008, 12:57 PM
I'd rather discuss the ramifications of being sprayed with tuna blood on the SWC in about 4 hours, but hey, I haven't gotten my tail kicked here in a while, so here goes.

Isn't there something a little wrong in this thread? This is the VP we are talking about, and accusing her of not being "ready" to lead. That leads to the assumption that something would cause McCain to be unable to serve his term.

Now, if I am not mistaken.....which I often am......and I'll be corrected......

She's been governor of Alaska for just under 2 years, so lets call it 650 days.

Across the aisle, we have Obama. One of the great orators of our time to be sure. But, he has, by media accounts (yes, I know, and Cindy McCain too) 143 days of experience as a senator before he got into the campaign.

Wouldn't that make him about 1/4th as experienced, or qualified? Then there is the difference between running a state, and being one of two senators from a state.

Of course, the problem is McCain. He's been in DC too long, he's an insider, and this is about change. So we'll get Joe Biden, who has 6 years MORE time in DC. Hmmm. I get it. It's about change.

It's about me gagging on the first beer in weeks when I hear that he's simply going to remove our dependency on foreign oil in 10 years. Nevermind that it is economically, and logistically impossible. And has been proven so over and over. But that doesn't matter. It sounds good.

That, and the $150 Billion he is going to spend on renewable energy in those same 10 years. Without raising my taxes. See, this will be done, while lowering unemployment. Nevermind that it is a fact that CANNOT be denied that in excess of 90% of jobs in America are created as a direct result of funding by the wealthiest Americans. That's where the $150B will come from. Tax the living daylights out of those who've succeeded and pushed this country forward, and lower unemployment. Who is this guy, David Copperfield?

Fact is, there will be far less incentive for me to crush my mind and work stupid hours running giant telecommunications networks if Obama gets elected. I work harder, more people get to work less. Call me cruel if you will, but Darwin was right on. You want socialism, head somewhere else. We got ahead by rewarding innovators, and those who worked hard. Not by punishing those same people, and taking their salary, and crushing investors with capital gains taxes. You really think that those who will be benefitting from those taxes are going to be running to etrade to make sure that we can make new jobs? Or might it end up going somewhere else?

I guess I missed the waitress, when she comes back, I'll take a glass of Kool-Aid too.

If nothing else (and start a new thread for the Vietnam discussion) I'd rather pick a man who was shot down and tortured for this country, than a man who has no issue with the fact that his wife claims that she is, for the first time, proud of her country. Obama and his wife are both millionaires. She HAS lived the American dream. But she's just proud now? (#$119)

Question is this. We are all at least fairly intelligent people here. Of the 4 of them, who most understands the issues that we discuss often here? You got it repub VP.

So fire away compadres. by the time most of you start shooting, I'll be on the roof of my friends Grady screaming into the malestrom like Captain Dan on Forrest Gump's mast.

As Tony Montana said, I can take your bullets. :brow



Bang on and well said. Best read I've seen in a while on the topic.

e-sea-e
09-03-2008, 02:03 PM
Just ask yourself what you thought at first about the war in Iraq and what the USA wound up with before you follow either of these party leaders.

unfornuately, I fell for the LIES told by Bush and channey and supported the war at first.. I'd say my bad, I should have known better, but I never expected my vice president to do a media tour telling lies and quoting intelligence reports that were already discredited by the CIA and other intellgence agencies as justification for a needless war that diverted our attention from finishing the job in afganistan and catching bin ladin.

I support the troops, I just think they should have been fighting a different battle.

sue m
09-03-2008, 03:57 PM
McCain in 3 years has a moment of lucidity which causes him to stroke.

VP Palin, after a sabbatical to compete in the Mrs. America contest ( in a long tradition of Neo con 'babes' - Anita Bryant etc ...) takes over.

Problem is she is pregnant at 47 (she doesn't believe in birth control) and is out of the office for months.

Question: Who runs the Country?

BTW when was the last time Bush or any neo-con ever publicly mentioned the name 'bin laden'?

Living Waters
09-03-2008, 05:01 PM
I thought you guys might find this CNN article interesting. www.CNN.com/2008/US/07/07/iraq.uranium/index.html

twofinbluna
09-03-2008, 05:20 PM
Maybe this is a sign of the quality of our inshore fisheries. Shouldn't there be a ton of Bluefin, Bonito, and FA threads going right now with a ton of activity :confused:

At least up here the reason is bad weather! Plenty of fish around at last check, just cant get out to them!

Bob Parsons
09-03-2008, 05:32 PM
I'd have to look at the database but I know my boat sinking thread has 21,793 views which if not a record is probably close.


My Introduce Yourself thread has over 50000 views :D

hightechtoo
09-03-2008, 07:30 PM
Google "Dutch Intelligence" and "Iran".

DaleH
09-03-2008, 10:52 PM
Wow, as a die-hard Independent and after reading 3-pages of stuff from you all - mostly from people I personally know ... I have come to the conclusion that the Liberal left scares me much, much more than the Religious right :eek: !

Once again, I am forced to vote AGAINST someone ... until we get a viable 3rd party candidate that is.

Though I won't put the attached bumper sticker on my car, I sure get a kick out of it!

RJ
09-03-2008, 10:58 PM
*****FLASH******


Gov. Sarah Palin of Alaska rocked the house in St. Paul, MN tonight.

Standing ovation was the norm.

I predict that in the VP Debate she will make "The Biden" Cry! --125-3

A tough, intelligent, poised operator. A small town girl who knows how to take names and kick ass.

The crowd loved her and She introduced herself to the American Public in the lower 48 with style and wit.

She admitted that her resume as a Mayor of a small town is something like a Community Organizer, except a Mayor has specific responsibilities.

I will be please to cast my vote for her and John Mc Cain.

John Mc Cain is the only man in this race who has defended The United States of America.

Biden's largest accomplishments before being picked as Obama's VP was receiving 9,000 votes in Iowa and spending $3,200,00 a month of taxpayer money commuting to Washington from Wilmington, DE.

--username-deleted--
09-03-2008, 11:05 PM
Wow, as a die-hard Independent and after reading 3-pages of stuff from you all - mostly from people I personally know ... I have come to the conclusion that the Liberal left scares me much, much more than the Religious right :eek: !

Once again, I am forced to vote AGAINST someone ... until we get a viable 3rd party candidate that is.

Though I won't put the attached bumper sticker on my car, I sure get a kick out of it!

You're not the Lone Ranger on your sentiment, Dale. The Libs can be a downright frightening lot.

L

RJ
09-03-2008, 11:24 PM
Gentlemen,

Here is one mans opinion on Gov. Sarah Palin. And I agree with his conclusion.

Palin Could Make the Difference
In This Close Race
By KARL ROVE
September 4, 2008

Will Barack Obama and John McCain's picks for their running mates affect the election? I asked some leading political science professors what research on this topic revealed. Their answer: Running mates usually don't matter, but this may be an unusual election.

John Petrocik of the University of Missouri, Columbia told me his analysis of vice presidential choices between 1972 and 2004 showed they had an impact of "less than 1%" on the outcome of the election. "Running mates have a significant impact," said James E. Campbell of the State University of New York at Buffalo, "but only in their home state." If their home state is small or mid-sized, they add 2.5 points to the ticket's vote there. If they're from a big state like California, Texas or New York, the ticket's bump is half that.


AP
Mr. Campbell also examined the Gallup Poll reports on VP candidates since 1968. Two of the best-received running mates were Edmund Muskie in 1968 and Geraldine Ferraro in 1984. Both were on losing tickets. And as Daron Shaw of the University of Texas pointed out, the lowest-rated choice for vice president, Dan Quayle, was on a ticket that won 40 states in 1988.

A running mate can have a larger "indirect effect." Mr. Campbell argued the VP choice "emphasized a strength or weakness" for the presidential candidate. Who VP nominees are and how they are selected provide voters information about the values and decision-making abilities of the candidate. This year, both Messrs. McCain and Obama made political picks, not governing choices. The political targets were not states, but attributes and voting blocs.

Mr. McCain made a dramatic, unexpected pick of someone who shares his maverick outsider attitude and is willing to challenge party orthodoxy and politics-as-usual. He selected a gun-owning, hockey-coaching, small-business-running mother of five. As a governor, Sarah Palin is the only candidate on either ticket with executive experience, heading a state government with an $11.2 billion operating budget, a $1.7 billion capital budget and nearly 29,000 state employees. Best of all for Mr. McCain, Mrs. Palin potentially appeals to suburban, independent women and small-town Hillary Clinton voters.

In choosing Mr. Biden, Mr. Obama moved to shore up a résumé shortfall (lack of foreign policy experience) and ameliorate his weakness among working-class Catholic voters, by picking the chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, who has blue-collar roots. But isn't it odd -- after Mr. Obama and other Democrats have castigated President Bush for supposedly surrendering foreign policy to Vice President Dick Cheney -- that Mr. Obama should attempt to reassure America by implicitly suggesting that foreign policy in an Obama-Biden administration would be overseen by Mr. Biden?

Messrs. Petrocik and Shaw suggest Mrs. Palin might have more impact on the election than previous running mates. If Mrs. Palin is seen as a defective candidate, it will hurt Mr. McCain. On the positive side, however, Mrs. Palin's background could lead voters to see her as someone who understands kitchen-table concerns.

Taking on Alaska's good-old-boy politics and beating the incumbent Republican governor might be seen as evidence of the political courage and independence voters are looking for this year. And with women more undecided than men, Mrs. Palin could add more than a point to Mr. McCain's total -- maybe two or three -- which could make the difference in a close contest.

The threat Mrs. Palin poses is why Mr. Obama's campaign has moved rapidly to disparage her record, and why left-wing bloggers have engaged in nonstop character smears against her and her family. Some in the press have aided and abetted this because they feel left out of the preannouncement vetting process. The danger for Democrats is twofold: in highlighting Mrs. Palin's inexperience, they may focus attention on Mr. Obama's; and the harsh attacks levied against Mrs. Palin could completely undermine the Obama promise of a "new politics." In the vice-presidential debate, Democrats must be concerned about Mr. Biden appearing bombastic and condescending -- which is almost a permanent state of mind for the Delaware senator -- while Mrs. Palin comes across as fresh, straight talking, nonpolitical and therefore appealing.

This will be history's shortest general-election campaign. The race is tight, so every new variable carries substantial risk and opportunity. So while the GOP vice-presidential pick is by far the more creative and bold, it is also the more dangerous.

But even if Mrs. Palin does well, as I believe she will, it is still Mr. McCain's performance in the next 61 days that will matter most. Sarah Palin can help advance the McCain reform narrative, but the hard work still rests squarely on the shoulders of John McCain. And that's exactly where the maverick and war hero wants it.

NMB
09-04-2008, 04:49 AM
sounds more like right wing wishful thinking/self dilusion. face reality guys. after 8 years of failed right wing republican rule, it's over. not even a hatchet job from a pretty nobody from nowhere can save that sinking ship, no matter how much phony hipe and scare tactics they try to create. seems to me, they're cooked and well done at that.

mungerish
09-04-2008, 08:05 AM
"sounds more like right wing wishful thinking/self dilusion. face reality guys. after 8 years of failed right wing republican rule, it's over. not even a hatchet job from a pretty nobody from nowhere can save that sinking ship, no matter how much phony hipe and scare tactics they try to create. seems to me, they're cooked and well done at that."

Well, I think you would'a had a point if you nominated Hilgary the Horrible....
....but instead I think the Libs will be choking on their own PC puke--127-3-

bigblue
09-04-2008, 08:29 AM
McCain in 3 years has a moment of lucidity which causes him to stroke.

VP Palin, after a sabbatical to compete in the Mrs. America contest ( in a long tradition of Neo con 'babes' - Anita Bryant etc ...) takes over.

Problem is she is pregnant at 47 (she doesn't believe in birth control) and is out of the office for months.

Question: Who runs the Country?

BTW when was the last time Bush or any neo-con ever publicly mentioned the name 'bin laden'?

Ya hit the nail on the head, Sue. :)

Soundking
09-04-2008, 10:05 AM
You know what's great about being a conservative? You are expected to be "mean" and "hurtful" so you can speak your mind freely. Which is both fun and infuriating to liberals and their cute little Orwellian ideals.

The two headed monster of Romney and Giuliani last night were hilarious! Romney tore Obamanomics to shreds using simple economics and business logic. Business logic (or any form of logic for that matter) is like kryptonite to liberals. It infuriates them. It's like holding a fossil in front of a born-again christian and blankly saying "fossil". The thought of individual drive and soverignty is scary and unfair. I'm fairly certain a few posters on this thread unleashed a Liberal Hiss when Romney was speaking.

Then, the hilarity of Giuliani. While maybe not the most accurate portrayal, it was certainly a Rovian bloodbath. It was like locking a hippie in a room and blaring death metal. The man has a set, no refuting that. He was laughing at "hope" and "change". The manner in which one would treat a child throwing a tantrum. I really thought he was going to say something like "put that in your prius and smoke it". I love it.

SteepBank
09-04-2008, 10:19 AM
[QUOTE He was laughing at "hope" and "change". The manner in which one would treat a child throwing a tantrum. I really thought he was going to say something like "put that in your prius and smoke it". I love it.[/QUOTE]

...and the conservatives (I call them repulicans) have done such a good job the last 8 years too..maybe laughing at hope and change is one of the reasons..ask your self if your better off right now than you were 8 years ago...if the answer is no than your own base is to blame right? Thats why 'independants" are cropping up like dump rats..those are mostly the folks who voted bush in....twice...no one wants to take any blame for voting the guy in...distance yourself than you can vote for someone and still bitch and moan about them when they tank..I also think people should remember that there are different variances of dems and republicans...ALL republicans arent staunch and uncaring and ALL dems arent flaming liberals ..nice flame job JJ:)

just for the record Ive voted for members in both parties during the last 20 years and I should shut up now since I said I wasnt going to say anything..this is too glorious a car wreck to just drive by it I guess

soundownsam
09-04-2008, 11:05 AM
You have to love this phase of election season when the artillery is blaring and everyone loves the sound of the big guns. Both sides have them and are firing away from the hills, but, at some point in time the guns will settle down and the infantry will have to charge ahead and the firey words of words of Romney, Huckabee and the Clintons will be long forgotten.

This battle will be fought by folks who agree to disagree sitting down and discussing where they are today, where they want to be tommorow and which candidates will do the best to get them there. The big talkers have already made up their minds and to be honest they don't really count. The folks who haven't posted on this thread are the ones who will decide this election.

Personally I hope that we get more people to the polls this year than we ever have before. The more people that turn out to vote the stronger our democracy is and I hope that an issue everyone can agree on.

Sam

SteepBank
09-04-2008, 11:13 AM
That sir was one hell of a good post!

Slappy
09-04-2008, 11:23 AM
[

I wasnt going to say anything..this is too glorious a car wreck to just drive by it I guess

I must agree with you on that. The left certainly smells blood in the water and this election has taken on a greater urgency.

I can't wait to hear how the republicans and democrats are going to "help me and my children". The clear goal of both parties is to expand their reach and usurp our personal and economic freedoms. And watching the media, one might think that there are no alternatives to their thinking.

Our lives would be so much better if only the government was bigger...

--126-3---126-3---126-3-

Yakfish
09-04-2008, 11:50 AM
I'm sure people who would have voted republican anyway will still vote that way. I myself love the choice because it offers such great entertainment as this;
http://www.236.com/news/2008/09/03/inside_the_mccainpalin_meeting_8688.php

Gadabout Guinea
09-04-2008, 12:51 PM
I'm sure people who would have voted republican anyway will still vote that way. I myself love the choice because it offers such great entertainment as this;
http://www.236.com/news/2008/09/03/inside_the_mccainpalin_meeting_8688.php

OK, that's just really funny!
--125-3

Jusbones
09-04-2008, 01:48 PM
Do we really want to get behind someone who has tried to "Bust-a-cap" in
Bullwinkle's a** ???--125-3

DLWKFW
09-04-2008, 02:16 PM
Y
This battle will be fought by folks who agree to disagree sitting down and discussing where they are today, where they want to be tommorow and which candidates will do the best to get them there.

The problem on both sides is that they do not listen to those conversations. I am a lifelong Dem, but I am infuriated with the supposed party elite who have again forgotten that progressive politics are about everyone and not some effete elite. Our voices faced an army of paid bloggers that maligned us for not following the new religion.

The Republican party is no better. The party that ran New England for the better part of this country's history is nowhere to be found. It has been drowned by the bullying voices of supposed Conservatives. There's nothing Conservative about the activism of the radical right.

Progressive ideas are what have made this country great. Teddy Roosevelt was right to make a split. I wish that there were some in power on both sides today ready to do the same. The center of both parties are not far off, and have a lot to offer. Maybe its time to leave the Liberal left and the Neo and Social Cons to their own devices.

McCain caved. He could have done better and solidified the center. Instead, he took a right turn onto a well trodden road.

--username-deleted--
09-04-2008, 02:21 PM
Do we really want to get behind someone who has tried to "Bust-a-cap" in
Bullwinkle's a** ???--125-3

"Get behind someone"? Well, now that you mention it, Palin does have a... Nah, too easy.

L

Sokinwet
09-04-2008, 03:25 PM
" Progressive ideas are what have made this country great. Teddy Roosevelt was right to make a split. I wish that there were some in power on both sides today ready to do the same. The center of both parties are not far off, and have a lot to offer. Maybe its time to leave the Liberal left and the Neo and Social Cons to their own devices."

My sentiments exactly! And I'm ready for the "VP draft" when someone decides to make a move! Hey.. 31 years of local government experience; designed and implemented numerous programs to help "common" folks, on the Board of Directors for a local non profit, former president of my BASS club; (former) NRA member, lifetime hunter & fisherman, never inhaled (recently), go to church (every time I get invited to a wedding), commercial fisherman (whoops..forget that one..forgot where I was ;) ) , foreign policy experience (went to Canada when I was 21....and Delaware) , supported the troops (painted the bathrooms at Devans once), conservative spender (still runniing a 71 Seacraft) ....hey I'm ready....maybe even the oval office if I get enough support! --127-3-

SamRiley
09-04-2008, 03:50 PM
Does anyone else find it ironic that a self professed conservative pulled a line from Lewis Black without giving credit?

Carry on...

ruge13
09-04-2008, 04:09 PM
Does anyone else find it ironic that a self professed conservative pulled a line from Lewis Black without giving credit?

Carry on...

Its like a sample hook from a Rap song. As long as its under 8 seconds its legal. I have the same philosophy about undera.... well, nevermind.

DaleH
09-04-2008, 04:27 PM
The more people that turn out to vote, the stronger our democracy is ....
Ahhhh ... but the Governmental, hence political system, of the United States is NOT a democracy. That's right ... me, a proud member of the GDI party said it - we ... the U. S. , is NOT a Democracy. We are not. In fact,

I will give an Ocean Lure of YOUR choice to the poster who can correctly (to my opine) provide the CORRECT terminology for our system of Government.

P.S., GDI = Gosh Darned Independent and I was one looooooooong before a poster above commented in liberal silliness that Independents are those who voted for Geo twice ;) . Remember? I don't vote FOR candidates, I votes AGAINST them. Not a fun place to be, but better than losing all common sense and becoming the 'L' word ...

DaleH
09-04-2008, 04:35 PM
Our lives would be so much better if only the government was bigger...
In truth, our lives, respective of our politicians and parties, would be significantly better, if the media were truly objective and independent.That is where I believe the U.S. started down a road to mediocrity. F$%k that :eek: ... who wants to be like Europeans ... :rolleyes: ?

A great MUST-read is the book Bias by Bernie Goldberg, who is a Democrat for the record.

Sokinwet
09-04-2008, 04:41 PM
Republic...you pick the plug

OceanRunner
09-04-2008, 05:01 PM
Constitutional Republic


...keep the plug - I have too many and not nearly enough time to use them

Living Waters
09-04-2008, 05:04 PM
A represented republic

Living Waters
09-04-2008, 05:12 PM
Representative republic??

Living Waters
09-04-2008, 05:18 PM
representative democratic republic.

DaleH
09-04-2008, 05:37 PM
Constitutional Republic

...keep the plug - I have too many and not nearly enough time to use them
Very close ... but no cigar, one key ingredient missing ...

Living Waters
09-04-2008, 05:41 PM
The word "federal" is missing. Federal representative democratic republic or Federal constitutional republic

Sokinwet
09-04-2008, 06:46 PM
constitution based federal republic if we need to get "technical" Please donate the plug to an auction.;)

SteepBank
09-04-2008, 07:17 PM
Representative republic of liberal silliness

--username-deleted--
09-04-2008, 07:33 PM
Representative republic of liberal silliness

I don't think that was what Dale had in mind, but you've got a beer on me for the giggle that evoked.

L

SteepBank
09-04-2008, 07:42 PM
I never win nothin!:)

OceanRunner
09-04-2008, 08:43 PM
Very close ... but no cigar, one key ingredient missing ...

Federated constitutional republic - can't forget the states.

I guess the real question now is: what would each of the two candidates turn our country into if they had the power to make such a change?


...this question reminds me of Eddie Murphy's uncle pouring a gallon of gas on his barbecue, yelling - NOW THAT’S A FIRE!

DaleH
09-04-2008, 10:00 PM
Try ...

Constitutional Republic founded upon Democratic principles.

And one could add, based on Judeo-Christian beliefs, concepts, and/or values.

jackduckhunter
09-05-2008, 12:54 PM
Try ...

Constitutional Republic founded upon Democratic principles.

And one could add, based on Judeo-Christian beliefs, concepts, and/or values.

EGADS DALE!!! Weren't/Aren't those the savages who "cling" to religion and guns!!!!!????? :eek:

DaleH
09-05-2008, 02:35 PM
EGADS DALE!!! Weren't/Aren't those the savages who "cling" to religion and guns!!!!!????? :eek:
Hey, I didn't imply I endorse it (less the 2nd Amendment part) but our history is our history, like it or not. And damn those who are ignorant of it ...

Thus I guess a part of me is ... a savage?

whyfly
09-05-2008, 02:57 PM
Was it Palin's experience as a PTA Hockey Mom or her less than two years as governor of one of our least populous states that made the decision for you? McCain was a maverick, now he's just another big business/christian right prop. And Palin put you over the edge? :confused:

Barack has made something of HIMSELF. No rich trophy wife supporting him. No past president as his daddy. President of Harvard Law Review. Community organizer. Multi-term state senator. US Senator serving on the Foreign Relations Committee. Opposed the Iraq mess. Smart. Inspiring. A real LEADER.

The McCain Mess only gets worse. Should be an interesting couple months.

Obhama made something of himself ... thats a joke, he addended one of the best high schools in the country, went on to top colleges, then spent a few years snorting coke. He got connected with the "right" people in chicago and found himself in state gov. From there he went to the senate where he did absalutly nothing. What experience does he have? What does he bring to he table? out of the box nothing. He didn't work for anything in his life it was all handed to him, just like this election.

People are getting wrapped up in his "change" but what specifically is he going to do? his campaign is very similar to the bay states gov. A bunch of hot air, promises of nothing and when he doesn't deliver anything 2 years into his term you can't hold him accountable.

I sit in the middle and it allows me to see both sides clearly. McCain is not God's gift, but then again only Obhama is claiming to be God's gift.

It is the respect thing, who would you want your daughter coming home with? for me it is the american hero who actually had to sacrifice to make something of himself, not the one that was handed life on a platter.

but hey that is just me....

jackduckhunter
09-05-2008, 03:04 PM
Hey, I didn't imply I endorse it (less the 2nd Amendment part) but our history is our history, like it or not. And damn those who are ignorant of it ...

Thus I guess a part of me is ... a savage?

Damning them right alongside you buddy!! Nice to find a fellow "savage"!! --123-3

RJ
09-07-2008, 05:32 PM
A Representative Republic!

We elect our representatives and they are supposed to vote for what we, their constituents, tell them we are in favor or against.

bertberg
09-07-2008, 06:41 PM
It is the respect thing, who would you want your daughter coming home with? for me it is the american hero who actually had to sacrifice to make something of himself, not the one that was handed life on a platter.

Can you tell me why McCain is a hero? Because he had the bad fortune to be shot down while napalming people and subsequently spent some years in a POW camp? I don't think so.

foulhook
09-07-2008, 09:48 PM
It is the respect thing, who would you want your daughter coming home with? for me it is the american hero who actually had to sacrifice to make something of himself, not the one that was handed life on a platter.

Can you tell me why McCain is a hero? Because he had the bad fortune to be shot down while napalming people and subsequently spent some years in a POW camp? I don't think so.

It's guys like John McCain that protect the rights of morons to make comments like this. He was shot down on his 23 mission of 1967 by a Russian missle. The guy spent 5,1/2 years being beaten and tortured day in and day out. At one point had the opportunity to go home and said NO because other fellow americans had been there longer than him and felt they deserved to go home first.

What does a guy have to do to be a hero in your book?? Have lunch with Ahmadinejad?? Stay home and burn draft cards? Would you have stayed for more beatings or said thanks get me out of here?

I guess the fireman and police officers that ran into the trade center for a third and fourth time just had the "bad fortune " to be there. They probably don't qualify as heros either right?

Whether you believe in the occasional need for war to keep world order or not, he was serving his country. Not like he jumped into his private plane and headed for Hanoi!!

Most people that make comments like this have never left this great country for any period of time. They seem to think the rest of the world must be the same as here. If you have you would know that the rest of the world is nothing like here. There are a lot of countries full of people that would love to see us all dead. And no it's not because of our recent actions. It's been that way for decades. Maybe if Clinton wasn't busy with Monica and took out Bin Laden on one of a dozen opportunities we would never have had 911.

I am sure that Hussein Obamas service as a community organizer was quite heoric. I'm sure that it prepared him to be master and commander of the free world.

When I read a post like that it just makes me think that we should remove all warning labels from everything and let nature sort things out.

NMB
09-08-2008, 06:40 AM
foulhook makes some sense as to mccain being a hero. unlike bush who had daddy keep him out of harm's way, mccain was honorable and paid a huge price. i just hope he doesn't turn into another reagan who empowered the terrorists when he cut and ran form lebanon at the first sign of trouble. we've been paying the price for that since 9/11.
and that's one of the things that concerns me with the republicans. they talk the talk but when it comes down to it they either run scared or screw it up. clinton on the other hand fought the war in the balkins to a spectacular success and lost only one american life in the process.
while mccain's pick of palin is understandable from a purely political point of view, it does seem that mccain's principles are not what he claims. he's willing to win at any cost, even by risking the country's future with a babe in the woods.

Yakfish
09-08-2008, 08:08 AM
No one can question McCain's heroism or patriotism. Although I admire those things, they alone do not qualify him to be President. I'm an Independent voter, and I supported him in 2K, but not this time. "Maverick" to me morphed into loose canoon for a while, then all of a sudden he seemed in lock step with Bush. That may have been a political move, but I cannot forgive where Repubs have taken this country. And before you complain about a Dem congress, remember that for the majority of it the Repubs had control.

I have friends who gave up a lot in 'Nam as well, and I respect the hell out of them too, but again, it doesn't mean I'd make them POTUS. I see Palin as purely a political move, but see absolutely no qualification to put her a heartbeat away from the presidency. To me a Veep choice is a big deal. I regret mightily that I voted for Bush in 2K, but the thing that caused that was Gore's selection of Lieberman, whom I loathe. Selecting a VP is the first "presidential" decision we get to see someone make. In this case, it makes me question McCain....

Cheju
09-08-2008, 03:55 PM
Since last week's Republican Convention it looks like Obama and the Democrats are going the same way as Brady and the Patriots. Down!

Cheju

gseries69
09-08-2008, 05:00 PM
What's really strange is that everyone keeps comparing, and quite closely I might add, Palin's experience to Obama's. Obama is running for President, not Vice President where one can gain 4-8 years of executive experience. Yes McCain is 72, but that doesn't mean he's going to die tomorrow. As President he would also have the best doctors in the world. I suspect he'll live another 8 years at least with mind fully entact. Plus who knows what damage Obama did to his body during his years of drug abuse. He might die tomorrow just as easily.

As an aside, one point I found humor in is Oprah's support for Obama and "Change". If you were a black woman in America and climbed to be one of the most powerful and richest women in this country, what on earth would you change? Jeez!

ps - I think Hollywood and atheletes should get a windfall tax, they don't even produce anything tangible.

--username-deleted--
09-08-2008, 06:00 PM
clinton on the other hand fought the war in the balkins to a spectacular success and lost only one american life in the process..

Speaking of, just saw a vid of Slick Willie the other day. Filed under, "that's rough!". ;)

http://www.boreme.com/boreme/funny-2008/hillary-prefers-barack-to-bill-p1.php

SteepBank
09-08-2008, 07:37 PM
Since last week's Republican Convention it looks like Obama and the Democrats are going the same way as Brady and the Patriots. Down!

Cheju


what...is there a jets fan in our midst?

bigblue
10-01-2008, 09:54 PM
Katie Couric is making Palin look like what she probably is-

A Dingbat!

This woman doesn't have a clue about most of the things a VP should know.

Is this the best VP the Republican party can muster up?


WOW!!:rolleyes:

--username-deleted--
10-02-2008, 12:18 AM
She's a woman of many talents! ;)

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=536_1221736553

Cheju
10-03-2008, 03:59 PM
It seems that all is quiet from Palin's detractors since last night's debate. Who won? The "dingbat" or the dolt?

Cheju

RJ
10-04-2008, 12:59 AM
The Gov. of Alaska won it, going away. Biden went off the hook twice. First be claimed the US and France kicked Hezbulah out of Lebannon. Never happened! Second he said his job as
VP will be to sit in the same room as Obama and give his advice when Obama has to make a decision.

The is a posted list of 14 lies he made up as answers to questions.
The Hezbullah out of Lebannon is #15.

Originally Posted by bertberg
"It is the respect thing, who would you want your daughter coming home with? for me it is the american hero who actually had to sacrifice to make something of himself, not the one that was handed life on a platter.

Can you tell me why McCain is a hero? Because he had the bad fortune to be shot down while napalming people and subsequently spent some years in a POW camp? I don't think so."

Your angst against Mc Cain it typical of a person afflicted with the sin of begrugery.

And your attempt to make a hero out of Clinton over Bosnia is pathetic. He sent our troops there, he didn't go himself, even to visit them. Did you forget about Blackhawk Down? Clinton didn't support our troops after he sent them there andthen he had them cut and run after seeing the fruits of his stupidity being dragged thru the streets of Mogadishu and butchered. He put out troops under the Command of the UN and didn't allow them the tanks their leaders in the field requested for force protection. His Sec, Def. was canned for that blunder. The efeite liberal thought that having tanks in Somalia would be "intrusive and that they would be deemed too agressive".

Mc Cain is a man and a hero! What have you ever done to protect and serve? Your comment on napalm dropping was out of line too. Very few, if any, Carrier based aircraft hauled napalm on air strikes in Vietnam. It was deems to dangerous to have aboard a ship at sea. Most of it was dropped by Marine and Air Force planes flying out of basese in Thiland and South Vietnam and delivered in side of South Vietnam.

It is an anti-personnel weapon used against targets in contact with American Forces. Not against hard targets in North Vietnam.

Mc Cain served 23 years in the Navy and retired as a full Captian. He sas served 25 years as a Senator. Elected by the people of Arizona 5 times. He is and American Success Story. I don't get your platter remark either.

Bitburg,

I suspect you have not a single inkling of what kind of courage and effort it takes to fly a jet fighter-bomber into the heart of the enemy's anti-aircraft defenses to defend the people of an ally. Nor do I believe you would have lasted a few hours of the tourture that John Mc Cain endured for all of us for more than 5 years.

Cheju
10-04-2008, 07:32 AM
Right on, RJ! Gov. Palin says it as it is. Sen. Biden says it as he and Obama wishes it were. A big difference.

Cheju

bdowning
10-04-2008, 08:32 AM
Is it loaded? ;)

-bd



She's a woman of many talents! ;)

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=536_1221736553

Corwyn
10-04-2008, 09:44 AM
I generally stay out of politics, especially on forums as it just becomes a confirmation bias. You see what you want to see and o one is going to change your mind.

But as a general comment reading this thread and others in other places, I HAVE to say, the level of STUPID demonstrated by the candidates and their adherents would be hilarious if it didn't have such devastating consequences!


People know far more details and spend far more time in a single season on learning how to catch a stupid fish than understanding the politics, policies and records of their elected officials in a life time.

Yet, based on talking points - which is nothing more than propaganda claim to know who is lying, who is right and who is a "hero".

There is an old saying

You get the elected officials you deserve. Case point.

SteepBank
10-04-2008, 09:50 AM
well i have a hero for lack of better word in my own family..my dad fought in the tail end of WW2..fought in the korean war...2 tours of duty in special forces in Vietnam,,and he was captured once and escaped..not the length of mcain but still happend..as a person would i vote him in office..no..doesnt have anything to do with politics...also the person he was then is not the person he became..case point..like the post said you see what you want to see..

I should note that even though i use it my dad abhores the word 'hero' in context of a soldiar...a soldiar performs his duty nothing more , nothing less...sometimes that duty is saving somtimes its killing..I think that aspect is totally lost on some folks

ok im going fishing

bertberg
10-04-2008, 12:37 PM
The Gov. of Alaska won it, going away. Biden went off the hook twice. First be claimed the US and France kicked Hezbulah out of Lebannon. Never happened! Second he said his job as
VP will be to sit in the same room as Obama and give his advice when Obama has to make a decision.

The is a posted list of 14 lies he made up as answers to questions.
The Hezbullah out of Lebannon is #15.

Originally Posted by bertberg
"It is the respect thing, who would you want your daughter coming home with? for me it is the american hero who actually had to sacrifice to make something of himself, not the one that was handed life on a platter.

Can you tell me why McCain is a hero? Because he had the bad fortune to be shot down while napalming people and subsequently spent some years in a POW camp? I don't think so."

Your angst against Mc Cain it typical of a person afflicted with the sin of begrugery.

And your attempt to make a hero out of Clinton over Bosnia is pathetic. He sent our troops there, he didn't go himself, even to visit them. Did you forget about Blackhawk Down? Clinton didn't support our troops after he sent them there andthen he had them cut and run after seeing the fruits of his stupidity being dragged thru the streets of Mogadishu and butchered. He put out troops under the Command of the UN and didn't allow them the tanks their leaders in the field requested for force protection. His Sec, Def. was canned for that blunder. The efeite liberal thought that having tanks in Somalia would be "intrusive and that they would be deemed too agressive".

Mc Cain is a man and a hero! What have you ever done to protect and serve? Your comment on napalm dropping was out of line too. Very few, if any, Carrier based aircraft hauled napalm on air strikes in Vietnam. It was deems to dangerous to have aboard a ship at sea. Most of it was dropped by Marine and Air Force planes flying out of basese in Thiland and South Vietnam and delivered in side of South Vietnam.

It is an anti-personnel weapon used against targets in contact with American Forces. Not against hard targets in North Vietnam.

Mc Cain served 23 years in the Navy and retired as a full Captian. He sas served 25 years as a Senator. Elected by the people of Arizona 5 times. He is and American Success Story. I don't get your platter remark either.

Bitburg,

I suspect you have not a single inkling of what kind of courage and effort it takes to fly a jet fighter-bomber into the heart of the enemy's anti-aircraft defenses to defend the people of an ally. Nor do I believe you would have lasted a few hours of the tourture that John Mc Cain endured for all of us for more than 5 years.


Wow RJ, seems I really got you going! Thanks for your imperialist war propaganda. The Vietnam war all of a sudden makes total sense to me :rolleyes:
Lots of heroism going on now in Iraq as well, right?

BTW I agree with you about McCain being a man; I still don't think he's a hero for what he did or didn't do in Vietnam, sorry. Regardless, he's just too old for being president, impaired judgement and all that stuff that comes with advanced age. Oh wait, you probably think his appoinment of Palin as VP was a great move! And his recent quitting in Michigan too! :confused:

Palin won the debate? Sure. You're a R(eal) J(oker)! ;)

Over and out.

bluefishbnb
10-04-2008, 12:51 PM
Read Matt Taibbi's rescent article in Rolling stone or click on the link below to read his blog and ponder for a moment guys. Hes not for either party but a concerned jounalist worried about the direction us "normal' Americans are going.
(#$119)
http://www.smirkingchimp.com/author/matt_taibbi

Too Fly
10-05-2008, 04:21 AM
It seems that all is quiet from Palin's detractors since last night's debate. Who won? The "dingbat" or the dolt?

Cheju

I’m gonna go out on a limb here and say neither won. I don’t think either VP candidate necessarily helped or hindered their presidential nominee’s chances. The two remaining presidential debates will have more of an affect on the undecided voter’s decisions IMO (not a first).

This is nothing that hasn’t been said before, but I think Biden did a fine job keeping his temper in check and Palin did a great job of holding her own against a skilled, “professional” debater. I’d also like to say that I do like Biden, even though he’s for ridiculous gun control laws, and I don’t care for Palin at all. I am a gun owner and I firmly believe in the 2nd Amendment. But religious right, bible toting, Jesus freaks who happen to own guns as well don’t sway me. And I know she would have no chance in reversing Roe v. Wade if she were to become Prez, so that‘s not clouding my judgment. But the fact that she is Pro-Life, even in the case of rape or incest, bothers the f*** out of me. IMHO, this takes her back to being a Jesus freak (Pentecostal, or at least up until six years ago) and I‘m all for a woman’s right to choose and for separating church and state.

BTW, I think there are a few wolves in sheep’s clothing here. Some claim to be independents. Yet they retaliate with such vigor, like crazed berserkers (I know, redundant) when someone has anything negative to say about McCain/Palin. I don’t re-call any “Independent” persons for Obama ever doing the same. Maybe it’s just me and my selective, biased nature? :)

I don’t think there’s any question that McCain served his country with pride, honor and a selflessness that no one here can ever imagine. He literally gave himself for his fellow soldiers, knowing that he could die as a result of it. For that he is to be commended and never questioned. Politically, he was once a maverick. But I don’t think those two things necessarily make him the better choice for the Presidency. I think both sides are lacking. But I also think that this ongoing, drawn-out war is a bunch o‘ malarkey and the current financial crisis doesn’t fare well for the Republicans either. I think it’s time to spread the greed around a bit and give them a rest for four jears, meng.

Paul

Cheju
10-05-2008, 07:17 AM
Whether you like her or not, her becoming the Republican Vice Presidential candidate has certainly created a stir. Over 34 pages on this thread. More than a mile wide bluefin tuna blitz 20 yards off the shore in Boston Harbor would create. Sarah has an audiance.

Cheju

venture
10-05-2008, 07:25 AM
"BETCHA" you guys who side with McCain voted Bush into his second term! Thanks

"BETCHA" most of you guys also feel that the Bush and Cheney's combined years of experience helped us out over the past 8 years.

"BETCHA" up until 2 weeks ago you guys also felt the economy had sound fundamentals.

"BETCHA" you also believed two hours later that McCain was was not really talking about the economy but was in fact (or fiction) referring to the American work ethic and not the economic fundamentals.

"BETCHA" you guys feel that experience reigns over brains.

"BETCHA" you guys never considered that we have been using oil as a major fuel since the Roman empire even though our technology put us on the Moon almost 40 years ago after president Kennedy set it as a ten year goal.

"BETCHA" if that's the case, you have little confidence in American ingenuity and work ethic, the so called back bone of McCain's explanation about our "economic fundamentals".

"BETCHA" if Bush and Cheney were running for another term they'd get your vote.

"BETCHA" if our country had the draft again, things would be different.

"BETCHA" McCain wished he could have pulled off the postponement of the campaign under the guise of dealing with the economy, especially after the post debate poling results were issued.

"BETCHA" McCains' "Maverick" selection of Palin as his VP running mate was due to the fact that he read the surveys and understands fully that the vast majority of his supporting demographic is made up of folks that lack a higher education.

"BETCHA" by the look on Mrs McCain's face, McCain had "other" plans for Palin too.

"BETCHA" The McCain adds are "gonna" get much uglier as the poles continue to show Obama is taking the swing states by storm.

"GOTCHA" because this time around you guys are in the minority.

Corwyn
10-05-2008, 07:37 AM
boy I wish I could be this good with guessing where the fish will be or the 6 correct numbers!


Palin now calls Obama a terrorist lover. Of course THIS speach and headline
IS not supposed to remind people of a 60+ year old hippie who
blew up some stuff 40 years ago, because after all the "faithful" never go beyond the headlines and the atlking points.

It's a calculated effort to ty him to muslims, just like the "Osama Obama" stuff that came out from Limbough

http://www.reuters.com/article/topNews/idUSTRE4932E920081005


OH and by the way what makes this "accusation" from the carribou bimbo SO rich is that her husband is a member af the Alaskan Succession Party which she fully endorsed. While it may not be treason it is certainly ANTY national far more so than this LAME accusation.

Cheju
10-05-2008, 09:36 AM
I assume that VENTURE means " I bet you" or " I wager you" when he writes "BETCHA". In my case, some of his "BETCHA'S" are close and in others very far off the mark. It is a good way of using guilt by association to try to bring your opponent to the mat. It is sort of like saying " when did you stop using a nine weight fly rod" to a dedicated thrower of heavy metal into the surf.

Cheju

venture
10-05-2008, 09:53 AM
Nope........and "THERE YA GO AGAIN JOE". I gotta "TALK THE TALK" t'ya "six pack guys" out there with Gotcha's and Betcha's or else risk loosing your interest. And here's a wink for ya ;)

Cheju
10-05-2008, 10:09 AM
It is obvious that those from the Norteast and California do not understand good "Midwestern" talk which is spoken in the rest of the country. The midwesterners still drink beer from " six packs". They haven't become refined enough to drink it from the bottle as is done in the Northeast.

Fishing must be very bad all over, not just where I am.

Cheju

Too Fly
10-05-2008, 12:37 PM
Sarah has an audiance.

Cheju

Oh yaaah. Geez, ya betcha she does. Awn both si-i-i-des she does. Yaaah. Oh wait... Here's a big Alaaask-ah wink for ya. ;)

OceanRunner
10-05-2008, 03:23 PM
Read Matt Taibbi's rescent article in Rolling stone or click on the link below to read his blog and ponder for a moment guys. Hes not for either party but a concerned jounalist worried about the direction us "normal' Americans are going.
(#$119)
http://www.smirkingchimp.com/author/matt_taibbi

I agree with this line of thinking…but I have to say it applies to Obama as well.

For the record, McCain isn’t a big choice in my book either, but I have to say these debates seem like they should be Biden vs. McCain & Palin vs. Obama. Palin and Obama both seem to be naive to most topics they aren’t prepared for (and robotic on the topics they are prepped for), and neither seem to be properly equipped to lead our country in either an executive or VP spot. So really, the fact that either of these people are where they are is pretty sad.

venture
10-05-2008, 04:10 PM
Now that makes a lot of sense! It would make this campaign season even more pathetic.

I would love to see Palin with her six-seven year struggle getting her undergraduate bachelor degree compete with a graduate of the Harvard Law School who graduated top in his class and was the first African American who became president of that class. That would be a very good match and a great debate to watch. It would also play well on SNL.

BETCHA if she was slightly coherent, winked a few more times and was standing at the end it, it would prove to be another win by all the six pack guys and the hockey moms who think they need someone like them to run this country. Nothing changed. A few years ago it was the cowboy's turn. Now it's Joe six packs' turn, or perhaps the hockey moms turn.

bertberg
10-05-2008, 06:38 PM
Read Matt Taibbi's rescent article in Rolling stone or click on the link below to read his blog and ponder for a moment guys. Hes not for either party but a concerned jounalist worried about the direction us "normal' Americans are going.
(#$119)
http://www.smirkingchimp.com/author/matt_taibbi

Pretty strong-worded article, but right on. But didn't we know this already? I mean, about 50 million "people" RE-elected Bush 4 years ago :eek:. Tells you a lot. Kind of scary actually.

bluefishbnb
10-05-2008, 08:34 PM
Ya, I think it hits the mark for the Wal Mart nation we are becoming!
And yes Ocean runner i do some what agree with you. And Matt Taibbi has written quite a few articles that point out Obamas lack of experience. I think that if we have to choose though, people need to put all forms of predjudice aside and really listen and fact check both sides and make an INFORMED opinion before you step into the ballot box. Personaly I'm voting Obama but if you vote for McCain because of an EDUCATED CHOICE instead of on the basis of the pundents and the spinsters and Fox news. Stick to the REAL ISSUES and make a choice then I have nothing but respect for your decision.
PEACE

RJ
10-06-2008, 12:05 AM
"Wow RJ, seems I really got you going! Thanks for your imperialist war propaganda. The Vietnam war all of a sudden makes total sense to me

Lots of heroism going on now in Iraq as well, right?" posted by Bitburg.

Absolutely Right!

Here is a sample of one. Perhaps you'd like to patronize this Marine Sargent.


Parris Island DI earns Navy Cross

USMC Sgt. Aubrey McDade Jr. earned the Navy Cross, the Navy’s second highest award for valor, for actions in Iraq in November 2004.

Sergeant braved gunfire to save 2 Marines
By Trista Talton - Staff writer
Posted : Sunday Jan 21, 2007 12:38:53 EST

JACKSONVILLE, N.C. — These days, drill instructor Sgt. Aubrey McDade Jr. is making Marines to win battles, but two years ago he was saving Marines during battle.

His actions on Nov. 11, 2004, in Fallujah, Iraq, have earned him the Navy Cross, the Navy’s second highest award for valor. The medal was presented to him during a ceremony at Marine Corps Recruit Depot Parris Island, S.C., during a recruit graduation ceremony Jan. 19.

McDade, a drill instructor with Charlie Company, 1st Recruit Training Battalion, was a machine-gun squad leader with 1st Platoon, Bravo Company, 1st Battalion, 8th Marines, in Iraq in 2004.

On the night of Nov. 11, as the Marines in the platoon moved south into the city, they entered an alley where they immediately met a barrage of small-arms and machine-gun fire, according to McDade’s citation.

“In the opening seconds of the engagement, three Marines were seriously wounded as the well-positioned and expecting enemy pinned others down,” the citation states.

McDade “rushed from the rear of the platoon column toward the kill zone,” leading a machine-gun team into the alley to spray suppressive fire at insurgents.

The wounded Marines were pinned down under a blanket of gunfire that spewed furiously every time the other Marines tried to reach their injured comrades.

McDade told the platoon sergeant that he would get them.

“He just informed me that if I got hit he wasn’t going to be able to help me right then,” McDade said in an interview. “I wasn’t just going to let them sit out there like sitting ducks. They needed me, and I went.”

McDade, a fast-talking Houston native, described the alleyway as “real hot” as he dashed toward the first of the three injured Marines.

Using his body to cover the wounded leatherneck, McDade told him to pull his gear loose and then pulled the Marine over his shoulder.

“At first, he was on my shoulder, but there were a lot of rounds coming down the alleyway, so I kind of tossed him over,” he said.

McDade went back a second time, instructing the next wounded Marine to remove his gear before hauling him to safety.

The third Marine, a corporal killed in the alley, was also pulled from the kill zone.

‘Quick thinking’
McDade assisted in treating the Marines and aided in their medical evacuations.

“His quick thinking and aggressive actions were crucial in saving the lives of two of the three casualties,” the citation reads.

McDade said he’s tried to block out the horrors of that day.

Still, he said, “I can’t put it out of my mind.”

He said he shares what happened that day with his recruits. While other drill instructors may tell his story to their recruits early on, McDade makes a point of waiting to tell his recruits until they start going through the Crucible.

“I don’t want them to listen to me because I have a medal,” he said. “I want them to listen to me because I’m a Marine.”

When he was told he was going to be awarded the Navy Cross, he first said he didn’t want to accept the medal. He knew he’d be congratulated for receiving a medal, not for the pain and suffering he and his platoon went through in Iraq.

“This award, I’m accepting it for me, but at the same time I’m accepting it for all the Marines who go before and after me,” he said.

It is by the grace of G and the actions of men like this that allow you to pontificate from your warm and cozy home.

Politics and Opinions are acceptable. Disrespecting the men and women who are serving is unacceptable.

Bob Parsons
10-06-2008, 07:11 AM
This thread seems to have gotten way off track. Time of it to die. For a " not to be political " it was almost nothing but political.