Billy Pate or Tibor?

[portis3]

I’ve narrowed my search down to two reels to pair with a Sage XI2 8wt rod. Either the Tibor Everglades or Billy Pate Bonefish. I’m a relatively novice fly fisherman and have never used an anti-reverse reel such as the Billy Pate. I primarily fish in Long Island Sound for Stripers and Blues. I like the thought of a long lasting workhorse reel such as the Billy Pate, but the design of the direct drive Tibor reels seem to be what most people use these days. I know that either choice will be excellent, but before pulling the trigger on this purchase I wanted to ask the opinion of those with more experience than I have!

[browndog]

Both excellent reels. You can get a direct drive Pate also. I"ve had a couple direct drive Bonefishes for 15 years. The only issue I've had is a sticky drag on one reel. If I were buying a reel today it would be the Tibor.

[BMWrider]

I own an early model Billy Pate direct drive and several Tibor reels. For any saltwater fishing I would not recommend an anti-reverse reel. As a novice you might consider that the anti-reverse would be advantageous because there is no spinning handle. This is not an advantage under most fishing conditions.

For example, if your fishing for bonefish drag settings are very light. An anti-reverse reel would slip easily when retrieving which is why bone fisherman prefer direct drive reels. Using a direct drive reel you can set the drag light and then have full control when retrieving line.

Your specific question: Billy Pate or Tibor

The Billy Pates are fine reels but a direct drive Billy Pate does not provide rim control. The spool is caged and to provide finger control for additional drag you have to put pressure on the interior of the spool. Years ago I did this on some nice bone fish and because the pressure on the spool torqued the spool on the spindle it burned out the reel. Tibor repaired the reel for no charge but that is not the point. The Billy Pate was not designed for finger control unless you apply finger pressure to the line which is not as smooth or controllable as applying finger pressure to a smooth rim on a direct drive reel like a Tibor

Tibor reels are a modern design, provide rim control, and are nearly bullet proof when used to fish for hot running fish like bones as well as far larger and stronger saltwater fish. No question in my mind that the Tibor is a superior reel to the Billy Pate series. The Billy Pate design is about twenty-five years old and what was learned from that reel was incorporated into the updated design of the Tibors. If you want to buy once and have a reel that will provide excellent service for many, many years go with a Tibor. I could go on with other details as to the difference between the Billy Pate series and the Tibors but it would not change my recommendation.

If you buy a new Tibor and there is any sticking of the drag on start up send the reel back to Tibor immediately before fishing it. They have turned out some reels of late which do not start up on the drag with silky smoothness. They know about the problem and will fix it without question. I hope they have solved the issue on all of their latest reels since it is a hassle to send a brand new reel back to the factory for adjustment.

BMWrider

[sweet+salt]

Within the limitations of your question, I too would go with the Tibor for many of the reasons mentioned by BMW above. Note too that the Pate reels have innumerable washers, spacers and whatnot making full disassembly a chore whereas the draw-bar Tibor is simple to take apart and clean/lubricate. However, a "modern design"? Not exactly. Fin-Nor and Seamaster built draw-bar reels in Florida back in the 1950's and by the late 70's early 80's another Florida-built draw-bar design, the Catino, was using a fully machined one part frame with an exposed rim spool. It is definitely true though that Abel and Tibor have refined and improved on this now "classic" high-performance fly reel concept. Recent prototypes I have been shown reveal that this evolutionary process is not over and new reels building upon this time-honored tradition are right over the horizon...at reasonable prices too.

[portis3]

I cannot thank you enough for taking the time to share your hard-earned experience with me in regard to choosing the correct reel. Having read over what everyone here has described I feel I can comfortably go with the Tibor Everglades and sleep tight. My wallet will certainly be thinner but I learned to try to ignore that pain and enjoy what comes out of it. Aside from my original question, I also learned some points I hadn’t previously thought of. Again, thank you for your input!

[BMWrider]

The comments regarding the earlier draw bar designs of the Seamaster, FinNor, Catino, and Billy Pate in the 70's and 80's are indeed correct so to be accurate you would have to clarify and say that the current Tibor reels represent the highest refinement of the draw bar design to date.

The Catino used a cage design for the reel frame which make changing spools more difficult. The unsecured pawls on the Catino beg for getting lost on disassemble since they drop out when the drag disk is pulled. The FinNors are tough but have small diameter, wide spools and are quite heavy. Mechanically as compared to the Tibors the FinNors are somewhat crude which is not a durability or usage issue just a less refined design.

I never had my hands on a Seamaster since they were already collectors items when I came along. I do believe that those reels were not machined from bar stock but were assembled with rims, pillars and screws and were of a cage design.

What all of these reel share is is a large cork drag disk with generally two pawls which became a standard for saltwater reels. Large cork drag disks have proven reliable for a half century. In truly modern designs for saltwater reels some manufacturers now use sealed disk drives and other disk arrangements. So far none of the modern designs have displaced the old reliable large cork drag from the market.

Abel reels have not been mentioned but they are of excellent quality and are in most every case equal to the Tibors. Tibors are the current glamorous reels with prices that reflect their status. If price, not quality is of concern Abels can be purchased at much better prices than Tibors. An angler will in most cases pay top dollar for a Tibor but can find Abels in like sizes for 30-40% less. Tibor reels are my preferred choice; however, an angler is paying the additional 30-40% for a slightly more desirable reel with the difference being design details, not quality or the ability to land fish.

BMWrider

[sweet+salt]

All good points, BMW. Indeed the Catino dogs where maddening to re-orient (my first bonefish reel) and the original Samasters had screw-in pillars just like old Medalists (my first salt water reel). Also Islander Reels have not come up and they are very fine too. I agree that Tibor and Abel Supers are similarly excellent in quality and performance. Abels have a potential advantage in offering similar capacity reels with different aspect ratios. For example a Super 8 is smaller in diameter but wider than a Super 9 but they have very similar backing/line capacity. So I like the 9 because I prefer a narrower spool for more intuitive leveling of line during the retrieve portion of bringing a fish to hand. Internally, the Abels are a bit more refined and elegantly machined than their ruggedly clunky counterpart from Florida. It can be argued that their sound is more traditional too but lets not get into minutia.

Regarding sealed drag mechanisms; I am using a Hatch 5+ trout fishing and love it. And of course their are Charleton's beautifully crafted reels. You can also buy a BMW (car) with an automatic or manual transmission. I sense the maintenance free sealed drag designs appeal to automatic owners and that cork drag, disasembelable/maintainable reels are bought by guys who can double-clutch downshift. Anything that can be sealed by Man can be unsealed by saltwater and having the ability to field strip a reel and return it to service weighs as a draw-bar reel advantage whichever one is selected.

[portis3]

I cannot thank you enough for taking the time to share your hard-earned experience with me in regard to choosing the correct reel. Having read over what everyone here has described I feel I can comfortably go with the Tibor Everglades and sleep tight. My wallet will certainly be thinner but I learned to try to ignore that pain and enjoy what comes out of it. Aside from my original question, I also learned some points I hadn’t previously thought of. Again, thank you for your input!

[Tarpon41]

Either Abel or Tibor, I use both three Abels and one Tibor Pacific all were purchased new but older model big game abels solid backs like Tibors 3N 4N 4.5N sale prices 30-35 % off and blem Tibor Pacific 40% as for Tibor blems look for Old Florida Fly Shop on Ebay...off all with warranty cards

[sweet+salt]

I recently had the opportunity, in a non-angling environment around a buddy's coffee table, to disassemble an Everglades, Super 9, an Alutecnos and a couple of other reels. So interesting how different solutions have been applied to the same issues. Leaving the elegant Alutecnos out of the picture because, rather than dogs locking a rotating drag plate, it employs a one-way bearing to actuate the drag. Not unique to Alutecnos, the MAGLA draw-bar made in S. Africa that I used in the Bahamas this spring, does the same and probably Ari t Hart was the first to use a one-way with dual sided cork in a drag. But I digress.

Limiting my remarks to the Abel and Tibor reels (I have no tie of any kind to either of these companies and respect them both) I think it is fair to say that neither offers a salient advantage over the other with the exception of the variable aspect ratios among Abel models I referred to earlier. They share essential identical operating principles; straight forward draw-bar actuated assemblies adjusted via a coil spring circumfrancing the bar and concealed in the central spool post. Both have good sized composite cork drag surfaces glued to a solid plate which, under spring loaded pressure, press against the flat inner surface of the spool to create drag. The Abel uses squared teeth in **** plate and the Tibor rounded ones. The dual dogs lock against these teeth to preclude counter-rotating of the plate under load. The shape of these teeth effect the in-coming sound of the dogs flipping against them. Abels used to be silent in out-going mode but due to popular request, Steve Abel reluctantly added an outgoing click. Early efforts; depressible balls in sockets find of like what Tibor has, did not sound great and, as in Tibor, subtract (insignificantly) from drag surface area. The newer Abel click sounds better and is more functionally divorced from drag operation. The difference in dog function is different too. Though both employ a redundant second coil spring as insurance against a rare failure; Tibor recesses these springs into screwed-in blocks of robust looking aluminum whereas Abel machines two armatures off each dog that protrude into the springs. Both designs effectively prevent the coiled springs from flexing laterally rendering them more efficient and reducing risk of failure. In my view the Abel solution is more elegant and the Tibor method adds unnecessary mass. The internal finish is probably irrelevant but there are pronounce machine marks in the Tibor that are smoothly absent in the Abel. Neither are as clever as Islander which uses the computerized machining process to incorporate internal counter-balancing to its spool. Both of these reels offer external handle options and are elaborately ported and available in all manor of odd-ball colors here you are on your own. One thing I like about Tibor that bothers me with Abel is numerical line size designation; in an age of Dacron vs. gelspun and 12# - 50# backing and lines from 90' - 110', the reel's balance with the rod is more relevant than indicated line appropriateness.

We are very fortunate to have these two great brands of reels available to us and I would be happy to be attached to a bone or a bonito through either. It is important though to put style and brand aside when selecting equipment for any endeavor and look under the hood and kick the tiers with an objectively analytical perspective.

[Onshore]

Go with the Tibor for all the reasons given by others above. Also, it has much more backing capacity than the Pate. Both reels are excellent products and made by real craftsmen.

[lemaymiami]

There's been a bit of mis-information given in this thread about those lovely old Billy Pate reels. I have two of them, both direct drive, a Bonefish and a Tarpon model. Only the very early Pates were without the rim control spools. Mine are roughly twenty years old and came with the rim control spool so necessary for palming to add extra drag... The anti-reverse or "slip clutch" reels are still available in catalogues and you can clearly see the rim control spools that they come equipped with - the direct drive reels are no longer produced but fine specimens can easily be found on E-Bay and other venues.

Here's my take on their value and utility... The big difference between the Pate and the Tibor is in sophistication. The Tibor was developed using all the experience learned building and using the Pates. The Tibor is lighter, with a more modern design, and quite popular. Those old Pates, however, have a few things going for them that the Tibors don't have. Unlike the Tibor, the Pate reels don't have any bearings at all, they use a sleeve and bushing setup that's absolutely foolproof, very durable, and in short "there's nothing to go wrong"... I believe that any Pate with proper maintenance will outlive its first owner and still be working just fine years later... Reels with bearings will eventually need one or more bearing replacements over time. Whenever one of my anglers has a premium fly reel with a problem the first thing to look for is a bad bearing. The next thing where I believe the Pate out-shines the Tibor is in the ruggedness of its construction. If you drop one of the modern sophisticated high end reels from almost any manufacturer - one dent in the rim of the spool or slight mis-alignment of the spool shaft from impact will put that reel out of action until the factory can repair it. The Billy Pate reel will still be in working condition... If I were heading for a remote area the Pates would be the first reels that I'd want with me. They're that durable and trouble free. The durabilitly does come with a cost, though. The Pate reels are slightly heavier than their modern counterparts, but I don't notice it much.

As far as size goes, the Bonefish model is a bit misleading. Mine is used with 10wt lines and has beaten tarpon up to and over 80lbs. If I were looking for a Pate for an 8wt. the Salmon model would be my first choice... One other thing to remember about the Pates... they hold their value very well over time. I believe whatever you pay for a used Pate on E-Bay will be the same that you'll be able to sell it for if you choose. Just punch up "Billy Pate" on E-Bay if you're checking them out. Occasionally you'll find great ones for less than $300.... I don't think mine will ever be sold.

By the way, many years ago, Teddy Jurasic was the first fly customer that ever ordered 100 of a single pattern from me.... I didn't learn about his reels until a few years later. In those days his shop was not far from my house.

[T-Bro]

I have owned Abels, Tibors, Billy Pates, and Ross reels for saltwater fishing over the years and I got rid of everything except for the Pates and old Tibors (not the QC series).

I think the Ross reels have never been up to the challenge of saltwater FF and I also dumped the Abels because I had problems with them seizing up when too much salt built up on the fine tolerance machining. Interestingly, try the following at home. Loosen the drag on a Tibor and an Abel, and then see how much play there is when moving the spool around on the spindle. The Tibor felt a lot more solid, which was another reason that I got rid of the Abels. Beautiful finish, but I thought the Ted Jurasic products were tougher.

I also like the direct drive BP Salmon better than the Tibor everglades for 7-8 weight applications like bonefish. The Salmon is the same diameter as the Bonefish, just skinnier, and slightly larger than the Everglades. Maybe it is because I have big hands, but I like the feel of the Salmon better. I do like the A/R Bonefish for certain applications like skipjack or bonito better, and have found that the rim control allows me to fine tune the amount of drag applied at the end of the fight.

For 9-10 weights, I think the Tibor Riptide is probably the best reel out there. I actually prefer the older version before the QC version came out, but think it feels perfect in my hands.

For 11-13 weights, I really like the Tibor Gulfstream. Since I got it, I very seldom fish the A/R BP Tarpon. I threw the Gulfstream on a 12 wt. Xi2 a few weeks ago in Key West and was blown away at what a nice combo the rod and reel were. Never got tired of throwing to nice tarpon, although the fish would not cooperate.

Tackle is a very personal decision and comes down to what feels good in your hands. I would love to have an old Seamaster reel, or a Charlton, but feel that the Tibor and Billy Pate reels that Ted Jurasic are the best value for a reel that I know will last my lifetime and give my kids lots of fun when they inherit them.

Buena suerte,

T-Bro

[Kuskus68]

Also the Tibor is a large arbor which will aid in line recovery dept..

[hatidua]

If I could only choose between Pate and Tibor, and was only going to own ONE reel, it'd be a Pate. - and a direct-drive version at that.

[Bigcat]

I have four Pates all AR landed a lot of big fish and have never had a issue.
You could run them over with a truck and they would still work.

[Onshore]

I have four Pates all AR landed a lot of big fish and have never had a issue. You could run them over with a truck and they would still work.

You've got that right. Never ran my pate over with a truck but one freezing cold day fishing the Margaree, I drove away with rod/reel sitting on the roof. Hit a bump and it bounced off and a couple times on the road. A few scratches and about an hour later I landed a 9 lb. salmon in another pool and, it's still fishing..........though I've retired it to Florida

[hatidua]

I just picked up another direct-drive Pate Salmon model on eBay this week --127-3-