Turneffe Flats

[flyfisher349]

Beware of Turneffe Fats
My name is Martin Newton, onthe 23rd of May this year I travelled from the U.K. to Turneffe Flats as a single angler for a week of guided saltwater fly fishing. My trip was booked 9 months in advance and my decision to choose this destination was based on reputation and claims made by the owner, Craig Hayes, on their web site.
‘We understand that a top notch guide is essential to a good fishing trip. At Turneffe Flats, you will be guided by experienced, knowledgeable, English-speaking guides. With an average of more than 20 years guiding on the flats, our guides are some of the most experienced and dedicated flats guides in the Caribbean’
I have fished several similar operations in the past such as Cuba, Venzuala, Dubai, Bahamas and Cheeka Lodge. Whilst I cannot fault any of the arrangements or amenities at this lodge my trip was ruined for the following reason.
On day one I was introduced to my guide “Smokey” my first sentence to him was “Hello Smokey, how long have you guided here “ he looked very sheepish and replied “long enough”
We left the dock by flats boat at 9am; I did not cast to my first fish until 1.15pm.
At this point I was concerned, as Smokey did not seem to know the fishing area and was being completely uncommunaccative.
As a 52 year old I rely on reading glasses, my guide saw this and offered to tie on my bone fish flies, that afternoon I lost 3 bonefish whilst flats wading, they did not slip the hook or break the line, the knots failed and I lost the flies as well, all had been tied on by Smokey. During the flats wading session I had absolutely no guidance from Smokey with sighting fish or casting to them I was completely on my own. That day my wading session lasted 90 minutes, I did not get another opportunity to cast at fish and I never made a cast from the boat.
Not wanting to cause trouble I decided to give Smokey the benefit of the doubt, this was a grave mistake. On day two, whilst being poled, I spotted some tailing bonefish, I pointed them out to Smokey and he completely overran them with the boat. By this time I was exasperated with the whole situation at the end of day two I had spent two hours casting to fish in two days. That evening I complained to the lodge manager.
My complaint was listened to and acted upon. Somehow I was persuaded to give Smokey one more chance, I was told that he had been spoken to and had admitted the problem. I was told he had some personal problems but that things would be better the next day. Day three was an improvement but largely due to the fact that I was coaching Smokey as to what to do i.e. tell me when and where he sighted fish and when to stop the boat.
I refused to fish with Smokey after that day and I was put with a guide called Michael. The difference was light and day. Michael was everything I expected in a guide and the remaining three days of fishing were excellent.
During my stay I was able to obtain the following information from staff members and guests
Smokey is a snorkel instructor and lobster fisherman.
Turneffe Flats have had guide problems, one guide had left and gone to work for Turneffe Lodge, another guide left over a wage issue.
They sometimes use another snorkel and adventure guide by the name of Abel to flats guide. When my wife spoke to him he told her he did not like flats guide as he was not very good at it.
On the final day of my trip another guest, Dr Jim Clark, approached me. He had arrived the Wednesday I had stopped fishing with Smokey. He had fished with Smokey for one day and told me he was going to complain about him as he knew sh** about guiding.
For the first three days of my trip I was put with an unqualified incompetent guide who had nonexistent communication skills.
On returning home I wrote a letter of complaint to Craig Hayes.
Craig Hayes offered me the following, which I believe to be an acknowledgement of a problem
‘a return trip at our “Cost Package” rate if we can do so without displacing another paying guest. This is a price point that we use for fly shop owners and industry people who are likely to generate future business for us. The 2009 rate was $950.00 plus taxes and the ’10 rate should be about the same.
I have declined this offer for the following reasons, I would need to take a week off work, Cost of flights from the U.K via Miami & overnight in Miami, and that one of the guides told me that the fishery was really on the decline over the past few years due to commercial fisherman fishing the grounds. Besides this it actually will not cost Turneffe Flats anything for the horrendous situation they put me in and time they put me through.
As if this wasn’t enough I have corresponded with Craig Hayes back and fourth with some 16 emails. I have bent over backwards to give him every opportunity to come up with a resolution to a genuine grievance. He has refused to make any other offer to reconcile the problem and at times has been insulting, evasive and completely arrogant.
My purpose for exposing this is to allow people to have informed knowledge about my experience. I would hate for anyone to go through what I went through. With hindsight I should have refused Smokey on day 1. If Craig Hayes had foresight he should never have allowed him to guide until he was capable.
I am more than happy to supply copies of all emails to any one who wants to see them.
Just email me at sherlock349@yahoo.co.uk

[Lineas Tenso]

Martin:

Thank you for the "heads up." Anyone having an experience such as yours should post all over the Internet. Sooner or later the operators will learn the hard lesson that the fly fishing community is small but well informed.

Check out Senor no show in San Juan, PR.

Cheers,

Lineas tenso

[tflats]

Generally, I don’t’ respond to internet postings from our guests as I feel they have every right to express their opinion without our edits. And, fortunately, nearly all postings have been positive. Recent comments from Mr. Martin Newton do require a response as this is clearly an attempt at extortion. Furthermore, they are largely false and are particularly unfair to our guide, Smokey.

Mr. Newton was a guest of ours last month. That particular week there were a number of return guests who requested a particular guide and Martin was paired with a guide named Smokey. Although Smokey is not one of our senior guides, he has been a flats guide for many years in Belize and we have used him intermittently for a couple of years with good results. He previously guided at Turneffe Island Lodge, where he was trained by Vaughn Cochran, a well-known Florida Keys guide, and Smokey knows the Turneffe Atoll very well.

When Martin began complaining about Smokey we talked with Smokey to see what could be done to remedy the situation. Smokey indicated that Martin refused to do what he suggested and that he had been degrading and abusive to the point of “cursing” at him. Smokey is generally a shy person and I believe he was unprepared and unable to deal with Mr. Newton’s abusive behavior. Not wanting to confront a paying client with such a sensitive issue, we decided to switch guides and Mr. Newton fished the remainder of the week with another guide who he apparently got along with.

After leaving, Martin contacted me with his complaints. In doing so he indicated the following…

“On the whole Turneffe Flats is a first class operation. My wife and I were completely satisfied with all other aspects of our visit. Everything from transportation, food, accommodation and lodge staff could not be faulted.”

He then went on to say the following…
“The way I see it is this, either a full refund on my single angler package or a repeat of the package, fishing with Michael at your expense.”

Furthermore, he indicated…
“To have my trip ruined by a failing on your part is unacceptable. I feel I have a strong argument that is well witnessed and evidenced should the matter go to litigation.”

Mr. Newton made several untrue and slanderous remarks about our staff. I chose not to get into a back and forth with him about these matters but I believe that we continue to have one of the best guide staffs in the Caribbean and several of the things he mentioned are pure fiction.

In spite of his threats and in the spirit of goodwill, I offered Mr. Newton a return trip at approximately an 80% discount which I thought was more than reasonable in that he enjoyed everything about his trip aside from his first guide. He indicated that he wanted a free trip or nothing and also insinuated that we ought to pay his airfare from the UK. When I didn’t respond to his last litany of emails because I was away from email contact he moved forward with his internet onslaught. One has to wonder why he demanded a return trip if his experience was so disastrous.

Mr. Newton’s last email to me, dated July 9, states.

“Craig, still open to suggestions before this gets out of hand !!!”
Martin

Below are letters from Jim Klug, owner of Yellow Dog Flyfishing Adventures, and Vaughn Cochran, owner of Black Fly Outfitters. Both help to clarify this situation. Jim visited Turneffe Flats while Martin’s email crusade was underway. I asked him to review the related emails and give me his honest opinion about Turneffe Flats’ response. His email to one of his clients below is self-explanatory. I am particularly bothered by the way Mr. Newton has maligned Smokey and feel that his reputation needs to be addressed. As such, I explained the situation to Vaughn Cochran who trained Smokey as a guide. His email below is also self explanatory.

Clearly, Mr. Newton’s motive is his own financial gain through blackmail and this really has little to do with providing useful information to the fly fishing public. Many of his claims are untruthful and even slanderous – particularly in regard to Smokey and our guide staff. It is an unfortunate situation but I feel that we did everything possible to address it at the lodge and then offered him more than adequate compensation for this circumstance.

If you need any further information or would like review the multiple emails between Martin and myself please let me know.

Best Regards,
Craig Hayes,
Turneffe Flats

PERTINENT EMAIL FROM JIM KLUG TO ONE OF HIS CLIENTS:
Hi Parker.

Thanks for the email. I am aware of the attached "trip report" from the disgruntled angler in the UK. I have been in the loop on this from the get-go (he was not a Yellow Dog client, but the lodge has kept us in the loop as to their efforts to try and rectify this situation from the beginning).

Basically, this is one very difficult, very strange individual who - from what I can gather by reading the very long history chain of emails - has some serious personal issues. I was down on the island last week where my wife and I had a fantastic time. While there, I spoke in detail with the owner of the lodge - Craig Hayes - about this situation and also spoke with the guides and members of the staff. The bottom line is that the lodge bent over backwards to accommodate this individual while he was there. When he had a personality conflict with his initial guide, he mentioned it to Craig and immediately a new guide was provided. (He loved his new guide Michael, by the way). For the record, the guide that he had a problem with - Smokey - has been a guide on the atoll for close to twenty years. I have personally fished with Smokey in the past and can tell you that while he is not the most dynamic personality, to say that he is "not a guide" is absurd. The bottom line is that this individual has been attempting to blackmail Craig Hayes and the lodge into receiving NOT ONLY a free week at the lodge, but also FULL AIRFARE back to Belize from the UK! In an attempt to rectify this situation and take care of this individual, Craig offered him an amazing discount for a repeat trip. In response, this person basically told him that unless he received the entire trip for free PLUS his airfare from the UK to Belize covered, that he would go out of his way to "make things bad" for the lodge. That is clearly what he has been doing with this on-line "report" and the dozens of emails that he has been sending directly to booking agents over the past week.

It is an unfortunate part of this business when people feel that they can blackmail or leverage a lodge or operation in this manner. If someone is unhappy with an experience, then the lodge should try and make things right. I can tell you from closely examining this entire situation that Turneffe Flats has tried to do just that -- times ten! It is my hope that people will see this individual's actions for what they are.

I can tell you that from my personal perspective as an angler, Parker, as well as from the business and agent perspective of Yellow Dog Flyfishing Adventures', that Turneffe Flats is one of the finest, best-run, most professional operations that we work with anywhere in the world. We send a TON of people to the lodge each year because of the fantastic overall job that they do. Please remember that here at Yellow Dog, we do not have ownership in any of the lodges that we work with, nor do we EVER seek or leverage for "exclusive booking relationships" with any lodges. (We avoid this so that we're never in a position where we have to send a client to a lodge in order to fill a quota or meet numbers for an exclusive contract). Our overall, number one concern is in matching our clients up with the finest destination for them; something that we can do by having a large number of lodges and operations that we work with and that we know inside and out. We would not send a single customer to a lodge that we had concerns about, and we would certainly not do the kind of volume that we do with Turneffe if we there were problems.

I can give you my word as a businessman and as the owner of this company that Turneffe Flats will take great care of you, that Yellow Dog will take great care of you, and that collectively we will do everything that we can to ensure that your future trip to Turneffe is as enjoyable, productive and pleasant as possible.

Please feel free to call or email me back if you have any questions. I look forward to talking with you soon and to working with you in the near future.

Best regards,

Jim Klug
Yellow Dog Flyfishing Adventures


PERTINENT EMAIL FROM VAUGHN COCHRAN:
My name is Vaughn Cochran and I am the owner of Black Fly Outfitter. I have managed 4 different fishing lodges over the years in Mexico, Costa Rica and Belize. Currently I am an owner of the Black Fly Bonefish Club in Abaco Bahamas. I am also a former Florida Keys flyfishing guide.

While in Belize from 2000 to 2001, I was the fishing manager at Turneffe Island Lodge. Among the many jobs required of a fishing manager is to recognize and train any potential fishing guide candidates. Fishing guides are very hard to come by so finding Smokey was special. He had all of the traits that you look for in a good guide, plus he had grown up on the island and all of his family were guides. I started Smokey out with the basics...stop poling when a cloud comes over, where to look, when to look, how to position the boat and so on. Best of all, people loved him. I only had a short time with him but I kept getting reports for years of Smokey's progress. Just two weeks ago someone came in the Black Fly store and said that he had fished with one of my students...Smokey. He had a great time!

Last year Craig Hayes, owner of Turneffe Flats, asked me about hiring Smokey and I didn't hesitate a moment to give him my recommendation. I told Craig if you can get him, do yourself a favor and get him on your staff. Smokey got hired and from all of the reports he has lived up to expectation.

In the recent issue surrounding a guest, Mr. Newton from England and Smokey, I believe Mr Newton is way out of bounds in his abusive treatment of Smokey and his insistence that he receive a free trip from Turneffe Flats because of his unhappiness with Smokey for his three days of fishing with him. It is also completely unscrupulous and bordering on blackmail for Mr. Newton to ask that his airfare to be paid for in full by the lodge for his return trip, and if they don't, to threaten to smear by way of the Internet, the lodge and Craig Hayes. Mr. Newton is showing himself to be just the kind of guy Smokey didn't want to fish with. Me either.

[backwater]

I read Martin's posting and I felt that another point of view was needed. I was a guest of Turneffe Flats in April 2007 and I had quite a different experience than Martin apparently had. I was a solo angler and also booked my trip with Jim Kluge. I was quite pleased by the service that I received from both Yellow Dog Outfitters and Turneffe Flats. The fishing was excellent and everyone went out of their way to make the experience enjoyable.

I have also fished at many different lodges around the world. For many reasons, things just may not "click" between you and your assigned guide. When this has happend to me over the years, I immediately bring my concerns to the attention of the manager and request another guide. If Martin's experience was as bad as he has indicated it was after the first day, I simply cannot understand why he would have agreed to fish for two more days with that same guide.

I am not a personal friend of Craig's and I have only been a guest of the lodge on one occasion. We first met during my week long stay and that has been the extent of our contact. While I was there, I met a few other anglers with whom I've stayed in contact. We have discussed our collective experiences, and I can say that from what they've told me, they also had a very nice time.

Based upon my personal experience (which included catching five permit), the opinions of several other guests, and the overall reputation of the lodge, I have to conclude that Martin's experience must have been quite unique.

Having said that, no operation is perfect. However, it does sound like Craig has absolutely gone out of his way to make this right by offering what is, in my opinion, a bloody GIFT by offering another week for less than 1/4 of the price. I don't care how bad those first few days were, in my opinion, I don't see how anyone could expect anything more that this.

If you would like to email me for more details, please do so. I would be happy to share my experiences with you about the lodge.

Regards,
Thomas Smith

[bonefishdick]

I will keep this short and sweet, the first time I went to Turneffe Flats I had a great time and so did my wife, we like it so much we went back for a second a time.

My guide Dubs was awesome and as I said before he made all the stories you hear about the Bonefish Guides a reality.

I actually derived my name as a joke with my friends after my first trip and have used it ever since then. I think it was because of the 24 Bones I caught on my first day.

Craig, you have a first class operation in my opinion

Best regards

[hatidua]

I don't know ANY of the participants in this drama but if the OP expects every fishing adventure to resemble a 30 minute ESPN2 fishing show, he might want to take up a new hobby.

I've been to Belize countless times, often a half dozen visits per year. Some trips are good and some are great. -And, you expect someone else to tie your knots?! seriously???? (#$119)

[sweet+salt]

My wife and I also had a first-class experience at Turneffe Flats during our March 2006 visit. We booked directly with Craig at one of the Fly Fishing Shows and received thorough and accurate information about his lodge. As a well traveled and avid flats angler, I anticipated permit fishing to be far more engaging than bonefishing at this destination which proved accurate. It is the responsibility of the client to research and understand the environment he has selected to venture to. It is the lodge's job to provide a high quality experience for their guests. Turneffe Flats' staff brings coffee to your front porch in the morning, serves first rate meals with a 'fry jacks' and eggs breakfast being particularly memorable, employs knowledgeable guides with quality flats skiffs and enjoys a high rate of return clients. The British 'sport', complaining above, lost all credibility with me when he failed to insist on tying on his own flies.

[Spiral]

Before everyone jumps down this guys throat, he obviously thought he had a legitimate concern if he came on here and posted it. That being said if hasn't come back on to rebut any of what was said that could mean something too.


But seeing some responses here, I don't think he was complaining about anything else the lodge had to offer but the guide. It could be very possible the guide was having a bad string of days, I've had that happen to me before too. And a good guide can look pretty bad when the fish just don't decide to show up for a couple days but that's fishing. And as far as him allowing the guide to tie the fly on......not doing something the guide suggests or offers can also be a sign of disrespect so I'm not sure where you're going with that one. To me, not as big of a deal as some are making it and certainly shouldn't be the one thing that makes all his credibility fly out the window.

I'm sure somewhere in the middle lies the truth, but the owners made a very reasonable offer to a guest who thought his experience wasn't what it should have been. They should be commended for that. Probably alot more than most places would have made. More than reasonable in my opinion.