backing to fly line for Big Tarpon

[laut]

What is the best way of making the loops on fly line for the bigger Tarpons? I am looking into using Rio braided monon loop connection then a nail knot to lock them up and seal it with aquaseal after. I also looking into just using 3 nail knots on the fly line directly to form a loop then seal it with aquaseal. The second method is a little big to go through the rod guides. I am using the Teeny Saltwater TS-750 sinking fly line. Any suggestions are welcome.

[pschwart00]

I would skip the mono loops.
Take backing - put a loop in backing using bimini twist. If using braid backing make it a double loop.

Loop the back end of the fly line by:
-create loop - use 12lbs. mono or so to put 1 or two nail knots on the fly line to create loop.
-Take a bodkin. Use a flat waxed nylon thread and wrap the stems of the loop so that you get a nice, clean surface. Take some 6lbs. mono create a loop. Lay this mono loop on top of thread wrap thread around fly line and 6lbs. mono about 10 times or so. Cut thread leaving a long tag end. Place tag end in loop of 6lbs. mono. Pull tag ends of mono to pull thread back under itself. Trim thread. Zap-A-Gap thread. Voila.

Now use the two loops to make a loop-to-loop connection. Be sure that loop of the backing lays flat on the fly line loop (i.e. it doesn't dig into fly line).

Also when wrapping thread around fly lin - hold fly line & swing bodkin around line. Don't try and wrap bodking around line - you want get a nice tight wrap. You may need to wrape thread around bodkin holder to increase tension for tight wraps.

Other plus about this method it makes changing fly lines on the water if need be super quick as long as your spare lines have loop connections on them.

[laut]

I would skip the mono loops.
Take backing - put a loop in backing using bimini twist. If using braid backing make it a double loop.

Loop the back end of the fly line by:
-create loop - use 12lbs. mono or so to put 1 or two nail knots on the fly line to create loop.
-Take a bodkin. Use a flat waxed nylon thread and wrap the stems of the loop so that you get a nice, clean surface. Take some 6lbs. mono create a loop. Lay this mono loop on top of thread wrap thread around fly line and 6lbs. mono about 10 times or so. Cut thread leaving a long tag end. Place tag end in loop of 6lbs. mono. Pull tag ends of mono to pull thread back under itself. Trim thread. Zap-A-Gap thread. Voila.

Now use the two loops to make a loop-to-loop connection. Be sure that loop of the backing lays flat on the fly line loop (i.e. it doesn't dig into fly line).

Also when wrapping thread around fly lin - hold fly line & swing bodkin around line. Don't try and wrap bodking around line - you want get a nice tight wrap. You may need to wrape thread around bodkin holder to increase tension for tight wraps.

Other plus about this method it makes changing fly lines on the water if need be super quick as long as your spare lines have loop connections on them.


Thank you for the information.
According to your instruction, this is a simple nail knot method on the folded fly line then apply another layer of fly tieing thread using whipping method to create a smooth double secure loop on the fly line. am I right?
That is a very good idea.

[laut]

Thank you pschwart00

According to your instruction, this is a simple nail knot method using 12lb mono on the folded fly line then apply a layer of fly tieing thread using the whipping method to create a smooth double secure loop on the fly line. am I correct?
This is a very good idea. Thank you again

[wjc]

Laut,

I use braided mono loops for my flyline loops and splices of running line to the heads for the same reason you mention - that they are not bulky and go through guides easily. I make my own braided loops (which is very simple) from rolls of the stuff that a local shop gave me - that way I can construct them with a triple catch and know for certain that they will not come loose.

My backing is hollow braid, and I use blind splices for those loops - which is also very simple to do (but a bit time consuming) with a long length of leader wire bent sharply in half.

To make double loops in the backing requires three blind splices, but it is good practice and does not take all that long. That method leaves no knots in the backing at all.

Cheers,
Jim

[IFSteve]

Get in touch with First Light Anglers and get a copy of their dvd on rigging flylines for tuna. Its now the method I use for all my big game fly outfits. Smooth and very very strong connection.

[wjc]

IFSteve,

Can you describe what you use, or is it too complicated?

Cheers,
Jim

[IFSteve]

Jim,

Here is a link to Dan Blantons getting looped method. The method used by First Light is very similar to this except that instead of the cortland or gudebrod stuff they use 100-120# dacron line.

http://www.danblanton.com/gettinglooped.html

When you do this you end up with a very strong loop in the flyline for connecting to backing that is also very smooth.

Now here is where the First Light method is way different if you are using gsp backing.

Take a 9-10 inch piece of the same 100# dacron and thread your gsp through the dacron with the rigging needle. Now tie a bimini in the gsp keeping the dacron up on the section that will end up being the loop. When done slide the dacron so that it is centered on the loop. Make a whipped finish over the two ends of the dacron to hold that sleeve in place then coat that whip finish with knot glue.

You can now make a loop to loop with the flyline and gsp and not have to worry about the gsp cutting through your loops and losing a big fish.

Take a look at First Anglers website and get a copy of the dvd. Besides the rigging part there is also a whole piece on bluefin tuna on fly and it is pretty cool.

Good luck,

steve

[wjc]

Steve,

That latter way is a good way to do it with solid gell spun. That's the way my gulfstream is loaded right now - except I put a guidebrod mono braid onto the line itself. Regular dacron braid is much quieter going through the guides compared to it though like you were saying.

But you don't want to center the heavy braid sleeve in the loop. It is better to have if off center, that way the finished ends are not together when it is looped to the fly line, but staggered. Where you do the whip finish or nail knots with very fine mono will be the biggest diameter and it's better not to have them both going through the guides side by side. Off centered , only one goes through at a time.

I am going to change that gell spun for Jerry Brown hollow gell spun right after this coming tarpon season. From everything I hear, it lays on the spool much better, does not cut like solid gells and you can blind splice it and not have to tie a bimini or anything. It can be blind spliced just like micron or any hollow core dacron line.

The prices on it have been coming down too. You can now get a 1200 yd spool for well under 200 bucks now. Just a couple years ago 300 yds cost more than that. And I expect it will continue to come down.

Cheers,
Jim

[IFSteve]

Jim,

I iwll have to check into the Jerry Brown stuff. I need a spool anyway for my new reel so maybe I should go that way. I sure like being able to blind splice rather than tie biminis any day. Where have you been seeing this line?

Thanks,

Steve

[Capt.PeteRowney]

Loop to loop is the way to go in my opinion. Bimini in the backing to a loop formed in the fly line with three nail knots using 12# flouro and a Tie Fast nail knot tool. Make sure you really put some muscle into cinching down the nail knots. When the loop is formed slip it over something solid and apply solid pressure to make sure the loop is seated. The connection is small, goes through the guides just fine and is 100%. You're not going to break it. If anything is going to break, it's your class tippet. One of the big advantages of using a bimini and nail knotting the fly line is that you can rig a new line in minutes while on the water. Note: this can be difficult when tarpon are rolling all around you! Hope this helps. -Pete

Capt. Pete Rowney

www.islamoradaonthefly.com

[wjc]

Steve,

I've just been doing searches periodically for the prices. Down here, World Wide carries it, but only in huge spools to load reels for their customers. I plan on shopping around on the internet for it.

I've noticed that different pound tests come on sale and they change around. So one week 120# may be on sale for a big discount and later 80# - but the dealers never seem to put them all on sale at the same time.

Cheers,
Jim

[IFSteve]

Thanks, Jim, I look around. Have to now. Picked up a new Sage Xi3 12 wt off ebay last night and going to get a new Abel today. Talked to my guide last night and he likes having two setups....floater and a floater/clear sink tip...ready to go so looks like I will be in good shape.

Steve

[flyfishsalt]

Technology has changed the game in the last few years. This past summer we landed a 300 lb. bluefin on Jerry Brown 100 lb. line. It has the same diameter as 30 lb. dacron.

Buy a spool of Jerry Brown 100 lb. test hollow core line. This stuff is amazing. For extreme circumstances like Giant Tuna and Marlin you can make a chinese finger type connection with the tools that Jerry Sells. I tie a loop to loop connection for all my Tarpon fly reels. It also makes it quick and easy to change fly lines at the end of a season and use the reel for something else. I tie some Jerry Brown 100 to the end of the fly line and make a loop. You can make the loop however you choose but I have now gone to a simple double overhand surgens loop. Then I take the BRAIDED BACKING (don't know why anyone would use anything else) and make a loop. The stuff is so thin and strong a bimini is total overkill, but you can do it if it makes you feel good. The simple double overhand surgens loop works just fine with 30, 50, 65 lb. power pro and 30, 60, 80, 100 lbs. Jerry Brown. Once these two loops are connected you can pull hard enough to break the fly line, never mind the class tippet.

[IFSteve]

I am probably going to use 60#. Do put a sleeve of either dacron or monocore over that to keep it from cutting through your loop?

[wjc]

Steve,

Oh lala, a new xi3! I'm envious. I've never even casted one. I'm using an ancient rplx or my buddy's xi2. We do like you and keep two ready, mine with a floating line and his with a clear sink tip. Since only one of us is throwing at a time it works out good.

I bought two sizes of those hook gizmos for doing blind loops in backing, but I have better luck with a 4 foot long piece of fine leader wire bent sharply in half. It has to be that long so you can pass your entire spool through the wire when doing the loops. But for me, it's much faster and I don't poke out through the side nearly as often and when I do, it doesn't bugger up the line.

For what it's worth, I haven't heard anybody who's actually bought the Jerry Brown complain about it or say they would just as soon use power pro or suffix or something.

Where do you fish tarpon, Steve?

Cheers,
Jim

[IFSteve]

Jim,

I havent been tarpon fishing in 15 years! I used to go to Islamorda every year for at least a week then got married, had kids, and just was doing other type of fishing when I got to take a big trip. Finally decided that my next trip was going to have to be back to Florida for tarpon. I just really miss it even though I wasn't really any good at it but when you do get bit its as good as it gets.

This time I am going to Englewood and fish with a guide that I went redfishing with in LA last November. We hit it off and he told me he mostly guides in Florida so long story short that was all I needed to hear to get me back down there.

I am really stoked and can't wait to get to spring. I HATE SNOW!

Steve

[IFSteve]

Did I mention I hate snow. Got some more so have to go out and shovel the driveway again this morning. SHEESH I hate winter especially now that duck season is closed.--124-3

[flyfishsalt]

Hey Steve,

Did you fish with Bear up in La. ? I know he comes down here during Tarpon season.

[IFSteve]

Joe,

I fished with Tadd VanDemark (he's who I am fishing with down in Florida) and Gregg Arnold (he also does tarpon). Really hit it off well with Tadd. Good guy and very good guide. Always got us with the wind and sun at our back. Well at least for the few hours each morning when we actually had some sun.

Steve

PS - The last couple of summers I have been out your way in NE trying to get me a bluefin tuna on fly. Got some shots (especially this past summer) but no luck yet. Hooked one and it cut me off right away. I am nuts over catching tuna on fly now!

[wjc]

Steve,

If you ever get back down Islamorada way, send me a PM. I'm just up the road a bit from there.

Cheers,
Jim

[IFSteve]

Jim, will do. Keep in touch and if you get out Idaho way I know where a few trout hang out.;)

Steve

[IFSteve]

So if a reel holds 200 yards of 30# dacron how much do you guys think it will hold if I use 60# Jerry Brown hollow gsp?

[wjc]

Steve,

That's a real good question that I couldn't find an answer to on the internet a while back. What I did was to compare spool capacities with Nautilus and Mako - the only two I could find that did comparisons for backing. Just checked again and both compare gel spun (no brand) to cortland micron.

Naut. CCF 10 with #10 WFF Micron 30# = 250yds. Gel spun 50#= 500yds

Mako 9600B spool #12 WFF Micron 30# = 350 yds Gel spun 50# = 620 yds

Now that is Micron, not regular braid, don't forget. I've got regular old trolling braid on one of my reels.:D

I think the Jerry Brown is a little thicker than solid Gel Spun but I don't think by much.

Someone in the line selling/spooling business should know, I would think. I was going to ask a local shop when I get ready.

If you find out some definite figures before I do, would you post it up? And I'll do the same.

Cheers,
Jim

[IFSteve]

Jim, I got a response on another forum and the guy said that he only gets about 15% more backing on the reel when using 60# Jerry Brown compared to 30# dacron. Said he loved the way it can be spliced but ended up using 50# gsp just becasue of the capacity issue.

Bottom line is that I am going to buy a used Abel BG 4 spool for my new super 10 then it won't be an issue.

Steve

[wjc]

Thanks Steve,

I didn't realize it was that much different from regular gs.

Well, I will be allright using it anyhow.

Cheers,
Jim

[Onshore]

I never use any type loop connection between my fly line and backing. I splice my backing directly to the butt end of the fly line and coat it with Loon's knot dressing. Never have a problem in more than 25 years and many large Stripers, Redfish and Tarpon.

[IFSteve]

Agreed but I have never had any loops fail either and I can change my flylines much quicker. Or less expensively than with buying extra spools. If you are likely to only use one flyline on a trip then its no big deal.

Do need to take a bit of caution with using conventional connections like nail knots on monocore flylines.

[wjc]

Do need to take a bit of caution with using conventional connections like nail knots on monocore flylines.

Good point Steve.

A guy I fish with a lot has been a guide in the Keys for over 30 years and Strongly advises his customers against nail knots - most particularly on "slime" lines - as he has seen them too often fail on large tarpon by sliding the coating right off the core.

He wants his customers to actually catch the fish they hook and cautions against nail knots on any line for large fish.

I have used them in the past before slime lines came out, but no longer use them on any line for large fish. Why take the chance?

Cheers,
Jim

[lemaymiami]

I've used nail knots on both intermediate and "slime" lines for many years... All on 10 to 12wt lines destined for serious close quarters work with tarpon over 100lbs in rivers (most are small rivers less than 100'wide). I only use 30lb dacron backing, either micron or regular and have never had a failure...(except for what happens when your gear gets dragged under mangroves...) There's a trick to it, I set two nail knots in a row (all using the same 60lb mono in sequence). A single nail knot will fail most days under a severe load since both the intermediate and old monocore ('slime' line) don't give much purchase for the nail knot. The two in a row setup solves that problem, period. The two nail knots are spaced about 1/2" apart and coated with Pliobond after trimming flush (I'm old fashioned - this setup was what I was taught back in the seventies).

The first thing I do with any angler's setup when they first fish with me is to test their knots to breaking by doubling leader and fly line in each hand then pulling slowly across my chest until my hands can't stand the pressure. If the knot's going to fail it will. You'd be surprised how many carefully rigged lines fail this test - particularly those done by someone's favorite fly shop where the guy in the shop has never fished really big stuff... When their knot fails, I then re-rig as the first thing we do that day.

In recent years there have been many innovations in leader to fly line connections. Many were driven by the chase for tuna and other blue water critters. Some are probably superior to what I use but since my setup has never failed I haven't had the need to learn them...

Hope this helps.

[IFSteve]

Capt. Bob, good points...I too use the double nail knot approach but have gone the last few years to the loop system the guys chasing bluefin in NE have been using. Mostly because it let's me change lines quickly .....and to give me something to do in the winter when there is a foot of snow on the ground and its 15 below like it is today.--125-3