5-Weight "Shootout"

[sweet+salt]

I initially posted this thread under "tackle" but it is buried by guys trying to sell thier gear...I am reposting in Fresh Water to reach the trout anglers that this 5 weght review is most relevant to. S+S



http://www.yellowstoneangler.com/Fly...pleforkBVK.asp

Once again George Anderson and his staff at Livingston, Montana's "Yellowstone Angler" have laboriously evaluated 20 9'/#5 fly rods for their second "5-Weight Shootout". As they did previously in the 8-Weight Shootout, all rating criteria was defined and weighted as it might be in an Auto magaine's Sports Sedan Shootout.

Snow is flying, Fly Fishing Shows are starting up, now is the perfect time to debate the relative merits of fly rod comparisons and what relevance they have to us, the fly fishers. Let the fireworks begin!
__________________

[fatkenny]

Sweet - I'm not selling anything. I like scott and TFO rods, so maybe I was a little defensive.

I think using the same line and same reel for all rods is just a little bogus. Moreover, suggesting that there is a way to quantify "better" for fly rods, where feel, opinion, etc. is so subjective is sort of a fools errand.

As I wrote in that thread, it's a great read and the info in the writeup about both design philosophy and new materials is great.

More relevant, I think, is that folks can probably take their 3 year old rod and get 99% of the benefits of the new rods, simply by sending some time lining it correctly. Old Yankee adage; buy once so buy quality.

I do buy a lot of stuff from scott at bears den though, if you are asking.

[sweet+salt]

Hi again Kenny,

I love getting a new rod almost every year. And I like experimenting with new products. I occsionally fish a rod and reel (but with a new line) that I bought 15 or more years ago that still fishes wonderfully. But I believe dailogs sarted by "Shootouts" like this, amplified by participating in this forum generate fuel for thought. Sure, using one line across the range of rods handicaps several of them and I would never buy a rod based on such a test but rather by casting it with a couple of different lines of my own. However, when I attend Somerset late next week I'll be sure to seek out several of the rods Anderson wrote about including some not in the top tier (like the modest-priced TFO BVK and high priced Loomis NRX for example). If this thread is still active I will report on some of my own "opinions".

[fatkenny]

OK which one is best? Ford GT40, Porsche 917, Shelby Cobra, or Ferrari 512?

The one that won the most races? The one that was the farthest ahead of the rest of the competition when it first started racing? The one that costs the most now at auction? The one that won the single most important race? The one that looks the coolest?

I'd say Shelby Daytona Cobra Coupe. Maybe a TVR Griffin. The Cobra coupe is maybe the best looking car of all time. I would be happy to put together an article with 10 pt scores on a variety of factors, proving that this to be the case. Shelby was sort of the Lefty Kreh of that era of Le Mans, and the cobra was his TiCR. Which makes Ferrari/Porche the Sage/Loomis. And Ford then is the St. Croix/Redington/Scott/Colton/South Bend? The GT40 was literally like Zebco deciding to get into the offshore fly reel game.

One annoying thing about the shootout (which boxing/MMA/used car dealers do too) is where you use a 10 point scale... except no one gets below a 6 or a 7. If no one gets below a 7, then you should have a 3 point scale. In boxing I have never seen a 6 point or below round, which just supports my preconceived notion that boxing judging is a farce.

OK looking forward to your thoughts on those rods! Definitely post thoughts to either thread.

[sweet+salt]

You are tough, Kenny. And I drive a '95 VW Passat GLX Wagon with 100,000+ with a 2.8VR6 and manual tranny shod with good Dunlop Sport rubber. It gets 20 points for swallowing rods up to 10' without bending them as long as the back seats are down.

I have recieved e-confirmations that G.Loomis will be at Somerset for the first time in years and I know that Hardy, Sage, Scott, St. Croix, TFO and many others will be there too.

[smcisaac]

I find Anderson's shootouts helpful and informative, but they are also inherently subjective. That's nothing to criticize; they can't be anything else. Everyone casts differently. For example, after the 2007 5-wt shootout I tested the winning Sage Z-Axis against the supposedly more delicate Sage ZXL (not availaable at the time of the shootout) and found I preferred the ZXL, because it felt easier to cast with my casting stroke. I could throw a line just as far and more accurately with the ZXL. Even so, for a lot less money I ended up buying an Albright EXS, Albright's then-top-of-the-line model. (Anderson had only tested Albright's midrange A5.) The EXS felt almost the same as the ZXL to me, and Kittery Trading Post was selling it on closeout for $200. I also picked up somewhere along the way a Wright & McGill Essentials 9-for-5 that scored highly in a similar Fish & Fly Magazine (may they rest in peace) shootout at a significant discount to the already-modest ~$200 MSRP.

I went to the Marlboro show this past weekend and tried the new Hardy Zenith, the winner of the new 2011 5-wt shootout, and liked it a lot. (I expected to, not only because it was the winner, but because Albright's former CEO Jim Murphy is now at Hardy and had a hand in designing the Zenith.) I noticed the same combo of power, precision, and sensitivity that the testers did. So at least the shootout correctly identified a new great rod. I didn't try the new Winston Biiix, which scored almost as highly, and which I might have liked better given my preference for the ZXL over the Z-Axis. Did I like the Zenith better than the 2 nice 5 weights I've already got, though? Would I like the Biiix better? Would I ever encounter the situations on the water where it would make a difference to have shelled out that much dough for a newer model? I don't know, I would have to bring mine to a shop and hold my own shootout. I'm half cheap Scot, a quarter analytical German, and a quarter emotional Irishman, so who knows what my own internal jury of three might decide.

[smcisaac]

Hi again Kenny,

I love getting a new rod almost every year. And I like experimenting with new products. I occsionally fish a rod and reel (but with a new line) that I bought 15 or more years ago that still fishes wonderfully. But I believe dailogs sarted by "Shootouts" like this, amplified by participating in this forum generate fuel for thought. Sure, using one line across the range of rods handicaps several of them and I would never buy a rod based on such a test but rather by casting it with a couple of different lines of my own. However, when I attend Somerset late next week I'll be sure to seek out several of the rods Anderson wrote about including some not in the top tier (like the modest-priced TFO BVK and high priced Loomis NRX for example). If this thread is still active I will report on some of my own "opinions".

If you can get your hands on a Wright & McGill Essentials, try that one too! Beautifully finished and I love how it casts. (It's the graphite one. They also have a boron one that is higher priced but doesn't cast as well, according to some reviews. I haven't tried the boron.) They are hard to find because dealers can't make much money on them.

http://www.wright-mcgill.com/rods/freshwater-fly-rods.php

[sweet+salt]

The Somerset Show was very well attended on Saturday. Between hanging out with friends from near and far, I did not accomplish all I had hoped to at the show. Like I still don't know what Tibor's "user maintainable, sealed, cork drag" looks like in the new Signature model. But this thread is about trout rods. There were many rods I did not get to cast, Winston nor Orvis were there, but relevantly to the "Shootout", I did cast some 9'/#5's; the TFO BVK, G.Loomis NRX and Hardy Zenith. For the budget minded the BVK is really good, OK really good regardless of price. The lightest most sophisticated TFO to date. I cast the 8 weight too and it was even better than the 5, I thought. The NRX is a terrific rod. Fast light and commanding there is nothing this rod can't do except, possibly, make short cast with feeling. Responsive, but I think in need of fine tuning with a more optimal fly line. If I were looking for a drift boat rod (and in fact I am) this would be it. I cast it in a 5 but, with further research, could prefer it in a 6; it is a power-house to be reckoned with. What is with that skeleton though? The Hardy Zenith. This rod is much as Anderson said it was; smooth, subtly communicative but with surprising potency if you reach into its lower taper. And you can. This rod invites you to cast off the tip, dip into the mid-section or lead with the butt. This is a rare rod that uses technology transparently to handle like a sports car but be tough like an SUV. Good looking too. Hardy USA told me to order mine soon - there may not be enough supply to go around!

[smcisaac]

Tom Chandler of the Trout Underground blog has a thoughtful critique of the shootout here:

http://troutunderground.com/2011/01/26/is-the-best-all-around-5wt-fly-rod-a-6wt-or-yellowstone-anglers-fly-rod-shootout-misses-the-target/

[sweet+salt]

I suppose that whenever critical analysis is attempted, particularly in such a subjective endeavor as is fly fishing, there are two fundamental reactions. One, which I share, is - great; someone has striven to assemble a comprehensive selection of products (technical 9'/#5's in this case) and compared their traits to one another; and two, "This is irrelevant to me. I know what I like and this isn't it. I don't need to cast 80', I don't want to do the kind of fishing where you cast 80' and I can't cast 80'. These rods are stiff, ugly and who cares!"

Most of us are unable to compare a large number of anything side-by-side and would undoubtedly learn something useful if we could. But for those who primarily fish a lovely stream near their home with tackle tailored to their water, new material technology and taper designs may be irrelevant, however, we who travel about to see what's around the next bend are often fascinated by new equipment that can enhance our fly fishing experience.

[carrsallstars]

I find Anderson's shootouts helpful and informative, but they are also inherently subjective. That's nothing to criticize; they can't be anything else. Everyone casts differently. For example, after the 2007 5-wt shootout I tested the winning Sage Z-Axis against the supposedly more delicate Sage ZXL (not availaable at the time of the shootout) and found I preferred the ZXL, because it felt easier to cast with my casting stroke. I could throw a line just as far and more accurately with the ZXL. Even so, for a lot less money I ended up buying an Albright EXS, Albright's then-top-of-the-line model. (Anderson had only tested Albright's midrange A5.) The EXS felt almost the same as the ZXL to me, and Kittery Trading Post was selling it on closeout for $200. I also picked up somewhere along the way a Wright & McGill Essentials 9-for-5 that scored highly in a similar Fish & Fly Magazine (may they rest in peace) shootout at a significant discount to the already-modest ~$200 MSRP.


I was a bit dissapointed the Sage ZXL was not included in the shootout- I also preferred the ZXL to the faster action Z axis. When testing the two rods I was able to bang out some pretty sweet casts with the fast action of the Z axis. However, when I picked up the ZXL I threw a couple of piles of line but knew right away that it was "the rod". Now that 5 wt is my main fishing stick and I love it.

I use that rod mainly and build around it with some nice but more affordable Cabela's 2wt LST and 7 wt SLI rods to cover all situations. If you wait until they are changing over models and put the rods on clearance they go from a good value to a fantastic one.

[smcisaac]

I have been daydreaming about the Zenith ever since trying it at Marlboro. Hardy had a booth at the Bear's Den show and I looked at it again there. I have decided to pass for now, though. My concern: to my eye, the aesthetics are every bit as ugly as the action is beautiful. That skeleton zigzag two-tone aluminum reel seat is just bizarre. It doesn't complement the look of any reel I own, and I already own too many.

If I'm going to write a premium check for a premium piece of gear, I want it to look elegant. I like either the tweed-and-sherry classic nickel-silver look, or else the ultra-stealthy, muted, dark, matte look that Gary LaFontaine favored. I'll be in the market for a new 9' 6wt eventually, and the Zenith would have been at the top of the list if judged on performance alone, but I will probably be leaning toward the Sages and Winstons instead unless Hardy comes out with a more traditionally styled version.