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  #1  
Old 12-30-2003, 11:00 AM
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Mark Cahill Mark Cahill is offline
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This will be a gentlemanly debate...

We are taking this forum back. It has of late been dominated by persons with very specific agendas. This is at an end.

I don't particularly mind agendas. We all have them. I do mind when people attempt to squelch the discussion here by posting voluminous threads and glomming onto every post in the forum. Discussing issues is one thing, attempting to position your point of view as the only point of view is entirely another.

Reel-Time has no political agenda. While its founders and moderators, advertisers and contributors may have their personal opinions, Reel-Time has not, does not, and will not editorialize for or against a particular point of view. Our objective is to provide and foster a fair and open forum for the rational and civil discussion of fly fishing and everything related to the sport.

As a lesson to us all, here are some unattributed quotes, some actual, some made up, to illustrate the point without offending and some suggestions on how one might get the same point accross without being offensive.

Quote:
I apologize if I have mistaken RT as a more open forum.
That kind of comment won't win you any friends, especially when you email it to the administrator of this site, who has just warned you about making personal attacks. The free speech argument does not work here, as I have the bills to prove this site is not free. I reserve the right to moderate and administer my site, and that is not a subject for debate.

Quote:
Again, more of the same bogus premise. <fill in the name>, I know that facts irritate those with <fill in the organization> but as long as I'm allowed to, I will continue to demonstrate what this really group is - a fraud!
Calling groups and people frauds and dismissing views you don't like out of hand by calling them bogus doesn't cut it here. Better to stick to the facts. "I disagree with <fill in the blank>'s postion on this and I feel their numbers are in correct. Here are the numbers I have...

Quote:
I am active in fisheries hearings...here is my latest 100 page missive to <fill in the regulatory body, magazine, outhouse wall> <Then quote a tremendously long and pedantic letter you mailed...>
Again, a for instance, and not an exact quote. Better to get to the core of the matter. "I have written to my congressmen and told them my feelings. Basically, I think that I should be able to fish for stripers in my bathtub." One line, probably getting your point accross better than the 500 lines of your letter.

Quote:
<name>, <name>, et al, as <organization name> members, does it concern you that folks like yourself who do all the work to support <organization name>'s positions in web forums are left to writher in the wind while well informed, open minded folks, poke holes in all of your arguments. If the <organization name> "leadership" had a leg to stand on they would step in and defend their position as put forth by their members.
Okay, sorry to hear that the leadership won't come out to play with you. Get over it. Trolling for a fight here isn't going to cut it. And the "You bad...Me good" approach isn't winning you friends, or even influencing people. Many of us actually have jobs and do not have the time to spend composing post after post to argue with you. No one is obliged to step up and debate you. And constant picking of fights like that only serves to squelch the discussion.

Quote:
Excuse me? There's a friggin gem from one of the frauds who are trying to re-frame the argument. Just curious, if there are no user groups, then who uses the 75%+ of the total striped bass catch coast-wide that the commercial fishermen do not catch? What a crock of steaming bovine fecal matter...
I have to admit, humor goes a long way for me, and the numbers are pretty compelling. But I'd tone down the language. But calling people frauds isn't going to fly. And the language...well, it could be toned down a tad, although BFM works for me. Better to just go with "That's just an attempt to reframe the argument. Who uses the 75% of the catch that commercials do not catch?" Stick to the point and make a strong statement.

Debate the issues not the people. Name calling is not allowed. Crossposting (posting the same message to numerous forums around the net) is not allowed. Attacking other users is not allowed. And posting voluminous treatises in the hopes of provoking a fight with some other interest group, while not explicitely against the rules is highly frowned upon. Also, if you are a board member of a particular interest group, and you are attempting to forward the political agenda of said group through your posting here...you had best clear it with me first, and make sure that everyone is well aware of your affiliation.

This forum will be a civil place for discussion. We do not explicitly support one side over the other. If you are not a good citizen, you will certainly be a GONE citizen.

Do I make myself clear?
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  #2  
Old 02-10-2004, 11:20 AM
MatMet MatMet is offline
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i think that you have made a good point, but i feel that many people may not find this posting.
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Old 02-10-2004, 11:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MatMet
i think that you have made a good point, but i feel that many people may not find this posting.
As the moderator of this forum I have noted we are moving forward with good discussions and debates. It is my, and the other moderators, intention to provide a forum for quality discussions. Fighting and mud-slinging gets us no where fast. Of course we are all entitled to our own opinion and positions. When discussing those gets ugly it helps no one.

Ray
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Old 02-11-2004, 03:22 PM
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Direct frontal atacks on teh truth amount to ungentlemanly attacks in my book, Mark. Sorry, but I'm not gonna call bs chocolate...

CMP
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Old 02-11-2004, 04:42 PM
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Crossposting (posting the same message to numerous forums around the net) is not allowed.

I'm curious as to why this is not allowed. Though I have never had a reason to post a message on multiple forums, it would seem to me that if one was aware of a conservation oriented issue that he thought would be of interest to the saltwater fly fishing community and wanted to get the word out, posting that message on all relevant forums would be the wise thing to do. Why is this frowned upon or am I misunderstanding your point?
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Old 02-11-2004, 06:25 PM
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David Churbuck David Churbuck is offline
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Crossposting comes in a couple forms.
1. The most irritating is when someone decides to post the same thing internally across multiple Reel-Time forums. New England; New York/NJ; Kayaks; Fly Tying, etc.. Usually done by newcomers who don't understand that most people read Reel-Time by looking at new posts across all forums since their last visit. Moderators usually delete the multiple posts (they're usually spam-like and offer a house for rent or a rod for sale).

2. Another irritation for we moderators is the person who writes a magnum opus on another site, and then posts a link to it asking people to leave this site to visit another. Hey, we don't mind external links -- that's what the web is all about -- but at a certain point we get peeved if all the poster is trying to do is siphon our users off to their site. Build your own traffic, just not on our backs. This is why we restrict the use of web addresses in signatures to paying sponsors or for non-professionals pointing to their personal sites.

3. And then there is the poster who just block saves the same post on one fishing site to the next. This is okay within reason. Just keep in mind that most internet fishermen read a few sites and after you visit your fourth site and read the same post for the fourth time, you start to wonder...... We're not a phone pole to staple broadsides onto. If you want to promote an event at your club or organization -- like a fly tying demonstration or a fishing derby, email me or Mark and we'll put it into the Reel-Time calendar. If you want to share your 3,000 word treatise on the signals you receive from uncovered electrical outlets and recommend that we all wear aluminum foil turbans, fine. Post it once and call it a day. Just remember, brevity is bliss.

Hope that helps. Keep in mind that your mileage may vary depending on what side of the bed the moderators woke up on or how the tone of a specific poster has been improving or degrading over time. There's no hard and fast rules. There's about 50 years of collective online moderation experience here at Reel-Time and after a while, you just know trouble when you see it. Heck, you know it when you look at the login name or the subject line. When a guy named "Master Baiter" signs on and posts a message with the subject line "Why Catch and Release?" you just know it is going to be a long day.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aws
Crossposting (posting the same message to numerous forums around the net) is not allowed.

I'm curious as to why this is not allowed. Though I have never had a reason to post a message on multiple forums, it would seem to me that if one was aware of a conservation oriented issue that he thought would be of interest to the saltwater fly fishing community and wanted to get the word out, posting that message on all relevant forums would be the wise thing to do. Why is this frowned upon or am I misunderstanding your point?
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Old 02-11-2004, 06:34 PM
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Mark Cahill Mark Cahill is offline
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okay...

CMP: Yes, we can discuss this stuff with out calling it bs. Compelling arguements win the day. Stick on target and there's no problem. As always, gratuitous name calling doesn't do it for me.

AWS: Crossposting goes back to the days of Usenet. One guy would post the same message accross all the rec.outdoors newsgroups, then there would be a hundred people replying to all the groups saying "stop crossposting." Here our problem is that one malicious little twerp can post the same message on 20 different boards in about an hour. Then we have a disjointed discussion in which the guy starts copying in replies from other boards. Often, the guy in question will copy in posts from another board with a whole different theme...and it is a disservice to both our readers and to the guy from the other board who all of a sudden has a new raft of people to respond to, some of them rather irrate at his point of view. This is a tactic that one poster was using for a while and I will not allow it again.

By all means, post about a fishing tournament all over the place. But if you really want to discuss an issue, it does not need to be posted on everything you can find, including the mens room at Denny's.

I recommend to all a quick refresher on our posting guidelines. I'm way to busy to hold hands.
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Old 02-11-2004, 07:45 PM
aws aws is offline
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I'm way to busy to hold hands.[/QUOTE]

Well thank you both for holding mine through cross posting
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  #9  
Old 02-12-2004, 08:30 AM
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No Problem...

That's the kind of stuff that needs explaining once in a while. Great question.
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Old 04-21-2008, 09:49 PM
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bonefishdick bonefishdick is offline
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Question Gentlemanly Debate

Some direct quotes from the moderator

"Discussing issues is one thing, attempting to position your point of view as the only point of view is entirely another."

"I reserve the right to moderate and administer my site, and that is not a subject for debate."

My question is, Is there a little conflict in these two statements?
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Old 04-27-2008, 10:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bonefishdick View Post
Some direct quotes from the moderator

"Discussing issues is one thing, attempting to position your point of view as the only point of view is entirely another."

"I reserve the right to moderate and administer my site, and that is not a subject for debate."

My question is, Is there a little conflict in these two statements?
Not really. As I see it, there are millions of folks with access to the site. But the
the operative word is "my site". Indeed it is. Therefore, to disuade and or ban those that abuse the rules is justified in my opinion. Yep, the 1st amendment lives, however, it is the editor, the news director that decides what is "fit to print". Moderators review posts to keep the wack-a-doodles posts for the 1994 Toyota Camary For sale, and such off the site. That involves time, which translates to work. Do you think Tim Russert, is going to do an hour next Sunday, grilling the CEO of ADM Corp ? The major sponser of Meet Tthe Press? Sponsers have a justified position here. Hawking different sources for ...you name it....equipment and so on....would be unfair. That is one of the rules. In my time on this site, I have found it to be one of the best, with a minimal amount of "rock throwing" in my direction. Just my 5 cents (inflation, falling dollar)

Last edited by Jusbones; 04-27-2008 at 11:01 AM..
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Old 04-28-2008, 11:18 AM
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I have to agree wholeheartedly with Jusbones. The moderators have done a great job on this website over the years I have been active on it.

I haven't always agreed with them but, I'm not always right either.
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Old 04-28-2008, 11:58 AM
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Thanks guys, we what we can, sometimes I don't always feel I've made the right call. But it is in the best interest of the group to err on the conservative side I think.
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Old 04-29-2008, 04:03 PM
FlyFishFrostie FlyFishFrostie is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Onshore View Post
I have to agree wholeheartedly with Jusbones. The moderators have done a great job on this website over the years I have been active on it...
Here is something Onshore and I are in agreement on!

I too think the moderators have permitted a very open discussion and exchange of ideas and have tended to step in at just about the right time in instances when necessary, without being prudish or stingy about it, often allowing RT-ers to first try to resolve their differences on their own. This has got to be a very difficult balancing act, and it has been done very well.

Many thanks to the moderators for their efforts, tolerance, and judicious oversight, which should help this site to continue to grow and be a great source for discussion and information on what all of us love so much.
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  #15  
Old 05-04-2010, 12:29 PM
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This will be a gentlemanly debate

Sounds like it was a smart pick by the Bushies. Im bummed about it, but this one will be hard to fight. Theyll get the hard-liner they want.

GoU
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