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  #1  
Old 08-10-2009, 09:00 PM
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pametfisher pametfisher is offline
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Hollow Spectra VI: Windon Leader Field Test Photos

A little over a week ago, we got to read the exciting story Heartbreak Is ......, about a long 4 hour 45 minute fight with an 80" class Bluefin that ended with a broken Owner hook just as it was about to be "stuck".

A part of that story was that they had agreed to try my new spliced-leader design. The key parts being a new small no-glue, no-wrap Serve and a short 12" splice that has been designed for casting distance and to withstand the high speed trips through the guides that come with spin-casting.

I got the leader they used back this past weekend and have been dissecting it to see how it fared. I was interested in whether the Splice or Serve had moved, whether the Loop to Loop had worn, and whether the tag end of the mono had started to chafe the hollow Spectra. I also examined the Triple Surgeon's Loop that they had used for the mainline loop.

Other than the expected, cosmetic abrasion of the Jinkai mono near the terminal tackle end from rubbing against the fish, the Splice, Serve, loops, and loop to loop were undamaged, photos below.

The Triple Surgeon's knot used for the mainline loop was solid as a rock and showed no signs of slipping or fatigue.

Although the results for the Serve and Splice are particular to my design implementation, the single loop to loop connection (which was squeezed to a dot) between a windon leader and a triple Surgeon's in the mainline can stand up to a very long fight with a big fish.
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Last edited by pametfisher; 08-10-2009 at 09:02 PM..
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  #2  
Old 08-10-2009, 10:13 PM
riptide riptide is offline
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I'd like to thank Roger for letting me be a part of the testing of his new wind-on's. They cast a mile and obviously hold up under some huge strain. Looking forward to beating up on this new batch
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  #3  
Old 08-11-2009, 08:32 AM
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excellent analysis, thanks for sharing
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  #4  
Old 08-11-2009, 09:47 AM
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Great analysis Pamerfisher, really appreciate your loop to loop series. I am new to it and practicing my leader construction and have a few questions.

- I have made up a dozen loops in #80 JB using copper 24 gauge wire. I sometimes struggle a bit getting the wire started through the side of the line and after poking through several times finally get it started down the middle. This sometimes results if a few strands, like lite wisps of fuzz, not a major strand or anything. Is this significant to line strength? Should I throw these out and use only the "perfect" ones?

- I thought i read in earlier posts you were using single wall hollow in your leader splice and serve to leader. It looks like the hollow core is doubled on the leader to serve in below. I this what works best to keep a short splice that is still good for casting?

Thank you for all your help.
George
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  #5  
Old 08-11-2009, 10:30 AM
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pametfisher pametfisher is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anut View Post
Great analysis Pamerfisher, really appreciate your loop to loop series. I am new to it and practicing my leader construction and have a few questions.

- I have made up a dozen loops in #80 JB using copper 24 gauge wire. I sometimes struggle a bit getting the wire started through the side of the line and after poking through several times finally get it started down the middle. This sometimes results if a few strands, like lite wisps of fuzz, not a major strand or anything. Is this significant to line strength? Should I throw these out and use only the "perfect" ones?

- I thought i read in earlier posts you were using single wall hollow in your leader splice and serve to leader. It looks like the hollow core is doubled on the leader to serve in below. I this what works best to keep a short splice that is still good for casting?

Thank you for all your help.
George
George,
It's hard to say if the wisps are bad or not but I think they're okay.

Here's how I look at it. The first (inside/out) splice in an end loop carries all the load so that is the one to get right--of course it's the trickiest too. If the wisps are not a thread, and are where you first insert the needle, that is okay. The reason is because the place where you first put the needle in has very little load when you are done. The tag that you bury (although it's critical) carries almost no load. That second splice really is the Serve for the first splice. The key is don't use any if you damage the part of the line that will carry load.

My hands are large and not super steady. Believe it or not, after you've done this enough, it will get VERY easy. You will make them quickly and perfectly every time. If I can do it, anyone can.

My leader design is unlike any other. I'm using a special Serve that has no glue and no added top wrapping. I call it a Pressure Serve or for short a PK Serve. That is the reason I can make a short Splice. The Splice is 12" in my case although 3" would work fine. I go to 12" so that I have 100% redundancy with the PK Serve. And yes, good eyes, it is a double-wall splice.

I have gone with the new design because I wanted a Serve that could carry 100% without glue and top wrapping thread so that it would stand up to a day of aggressive casting and still be 100% when that fish of a lifetime struck. In the case of Riptide's fish, the theory worked until the hook broke after a 4 hr. 45 min. fight.

If you look in the attached photo, you can see how I've proven to myself where the forces fall. It also let me determine that 3-6" Splice sections (2 per end loop) are more than enough.

PF
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  #6  
Old 08-11-2009, 11:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pametfisher View Post
George,
It's hard to say if the wisps are bad or not but I think they're okay.

Here's how I look at it. The first (inside/out) splice in an end loop carries all the load so that is the one to get right--of course it's the trickiest too. If the wisps are not a thread, and are where you first insert the needle, that is okay. The reason is because the place where you first put the needle in has very little load when you are done. The tag that you bury (although it's critical) carries almost no load. That second splice really is the Serve for the first splice. The key is don't use any if you damage the part of the line that will carry load.

My hands are large and not super steady. Believe it or not, after you've done this enough, it will get VERY easy. You will make them quickly and perfectly every time. If I can do it, anyone can.

My leader design is unlike any other. I'm using a special Serve that has no glue and no added top wrapping. I call it a Pressure Serve or for short a PK Serve. That is the reason I can make a short Splice. The Splice is 12" in my case although 3" would work fine. I go to 12" so that I have 100% redundancy with the PK Serve. And yes, good eyes, it is a double-wall splice.

I have gone with the new design because I wanted a Serve that could carry 100% without glue and top wrapping thread so that it would stand up to a day of aggressive casting and still be 100% when that fish of a lifetime struck. In the case of Riptide's fish, the theory worked until the hook broke after a 4 hr. 45 min. fight.

If you look in the attached photo, you can see how I've proven to myself where the forces fall. It also let me determine that 3-6" Splice sections (2 per end loop) are more than enough.

PF
PF,

Yea, i will practice more, have some 28 guage that may help. It is the fat fingers that need to get nimble. I used a full 12" for both sections of the loop splice. My intention is to use for casting (as will as jigging) and in interest of keeping it short, are you inserting the mono/flouro within the second 12" of the loop serve (where to tag is back into the main line)? Tough to tell in photos. Seems like it should work and keep it short so that less (loops/serves/leader) is on the spool when casting.

On the fray, good point, slight tufts on the first wire insert should not be an issue as that will not be carryign much load. The second wire insert is more of a concern as it is in the main (to bury the tag). This concern on the second wire insert will "go away" if this is also where I serve the leader as any "fray" is now not carrying load. From your load carrying posts this makes sense to me.

How do you serve with pressure? Secret sauce? I am using the JB glue and thread.

I really am liking the looks of this loop to loop. Casted a few on land with 2 oz on the st Croux and it would seem my troubles (Slim Beauty flouro figure 8 wacking the tip guide with 80# or more leader) are solved.

Thanks again!
George
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  #7  
Old 08-11-2009, 02:36 PM
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pametfisher pametfisher is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anut View Post
PF,

Yea, i will practice more, have some 28 guage that may help. It is the fat fingers that need to get nimble. I used a full 12" for both sections of the loop splice. My intention is to use for casting (as will as jigging) and in interest of keeping it short, are you inserting the mono/flouro within the second 12" of the loop serve (where to tag is back into the main line)? Tough to tell in photos. Seems like it should work and keep it short so that less (loops/serves/leader) is on the spool when casting.

On the fray, good point, slight tufts on the first wire insert should not be an issue as that will not be carryign much load. The second wire insert is more of a concern as it is in the main (to bury the tag). This concern on the second wire insert will "go away" if this is also where I serve the leader as any "fray" is now not carrying load. From your load carrying posts this makes sense to me.

How do you serve with pressure? Secret sauce? I am using the JB glue and thread.

I really am liking the looks of this loop to loop. Casted a few on land with 2 oz on the st Croux and it would seem my troubles (Slim Beauty flouro figure 8 wacking the tip guide with 80# or more leader) are solved.

Thanks again!
George
I've got my splice into two layers but not in the same way that normal splicing would do it. If you look at the post I did a few months back, Hollow Spectra Part II, I mentioned the different rates of stretch between Mono and Spectra. I've used that observation to think of splicing in a new way.

I would splice 24 to 36" into the hollow if you are gluing and wrapping. Unless you do, if the glue lets go, you could have a failure. It's a matter of confidence in a 100% load holding ability at the Serve. I was able to make every commercial serve separate other than the BHP Tackle leaders.
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  #8  
Old 08-11-2009, 04:23 PM
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Roger,
Is the double layer only over the mono leader section and the rest is single???
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  #9  
Old 08-12-2009, 06:58 AM
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pametfisher pametfisher is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Albiemanmike View Post
Roger,
Is the double layer only over the mono leader section and the rest is single???
In almost every double-wall wind-on leader design I've looked at, only one layer carries almost all the load. The choice for the second layer is whether you want internal or external chafing protection.

In the traditional double-wall design, that choice is made by default, and the second wall is outside with the inner wall carrying the load. Therefore, the outer wall is external chafing protection. However, in the traditional design, the load can shift to the outer layer depending on how high the load gets. This happens when the mono starts to stretch the external layer Serve away from the internal layer Serve. This is one reason that my testing of Commercial leaders Commercial Leader Tests, broke the Serves.

Because it is a "wear point" I've been thinking that internal chafing protection is advantageous, so that's the approach I've been taking. that protects the hollow Spectra from the cut end of the mono/fluoro.

Last edited by pametfisher; 08-12-2009 at 07:14 AM..
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Old 08-27-2009, 10:11 AM
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In the original photos, can someone (Pametfisher) please elaborate on the knot used to make loop in mainline?

It's stated as a triple surgeons but this confuses me.

I've been doing my best to understand the pros of this method and get most, just the part where main line gets connected to leader (combo of hollow core and jinkai).

Thanks.
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  #11  
Old 08-27-2009, 10:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moses View Post
In the original photos, can someone (Pametfisher) please elaborate on the knot used to make loop in mainline?

It's stated as a triple surgeons but this confuses me.

I've been doing my best to understand the pros of this method and get most, just the part where main line gets connected to leader (combo of hollow core and jinkai).

Thanks.
Surgeons loop
http://www.netknots.com/html/surgeons_end_loop.html
They use a triple.

If you have hollow core main line you can splice a look. Pfisher has great tutorials - search on his posts and you will see them.
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Old 08-27-2009, 11:10 AM
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I was confused because he referenced a 'triple surgeons' knot in original post. This is the set up I use now to connect my 80lb PP directly to my 80lb Mono leader. I've caught two tuna now on this and knot hasn't failed but if not tied tight, it grabs the guides on the cast. Which of course is the problem I'm trying to remedy.

Seems a 'surgeon's end loop' knot differs from above so thanks for clarification.
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  #13  
Old 08-27-2009, 11:46 AM
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pametfisher pametfisher is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anut View Post
Surgeons loop
http://www.netknots.com/html/surgeons_end_loop.html
They use a triple.

If you have hollow core main line you can splice a look. Pfisher has great tutorials - search on his posts and you will see them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moses View Post
In the original photos, can someone (Pametfisher) please elaborate on the knot used to make loop in mainline?

It's stated as a triple surgeons but this confuses me.

I've been doing my best to understand the pros of this method and get most, just the part where main line gets connected to leader (combo of hollow core and jinkai).

Thanks.
I the post: Hollow Spectra V, I've made some comments about mainline loop tradeoffs and there are some comments from others too.

Another way to get a loop of solid-weave line is to make a: Solid Hollow Splice.

If your mainline is 80# and above, and you use solid line, a Surgeon's Loop isn't a bad alternative since the knot breaking strength is likely to be 60 lbs. or greater. At 65# mainline and below, lower knot strength can be more of a factor against using a Surgeon's Loop (e.g. 50# PP delivers a knot strength of about 30 lbs.). It depends on how much drag you're going to run and how much margin you want in your line system.

PF
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Old 08-29-2009, 08:10 AM
nikonfme nikonfme is offline
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Are your wind on's being sold?

Just curious what make your wind on's so castable. I use a bimini on my main and a loop to loop using a shimano fluro. It's terrible for casting. Would love a wind on that you can cast. So, are yours available now?
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Old 08-29-2009, 10:18 AM
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The reasons they are castable are:
-short splice, flexible splice, no glue
-small, flexible serve, no glue
-thin Serve, no wrapping thread
-flexible leader materials
-leader length

The reasons they stand up to casting are:
-no wrapping thread to come off
-no glue to come loose

Yes, they are available now, thank you for asking. I will PM you.

Last edited by pametfisher; 08-29-2009 at 10:22 AM..
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